Dear Fuel Injection in Classic Buick gurus, I have picked your brains a little already, but unfortunately - I have way too many puzzling elements that I cannot assemble in a reasonable order. This question will serve to illustrate my misery. I'm trying to fit a big-block Buick (430-455) into a 1965 Buick Special (Skylark, GS, A-body.) It is going to be a tight squeeze. I'm being urged to go with an aluminum intake manifold for a number of reasons. While that sounds like a good idea, there are potential pit-falls like: being unable to close the hood! ou: A fellow who has succeeded in this "extreme makeover" reports that he had problems closing the hood on his 65 Special wagon when he had the TA-Performance SP-1 manifold. So he switched to the <style>@font-face { font-family: "ＭＳ 明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Cambria; }.MsoChpDefault { font-family: Cambria; }div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }</style> Edelbrock Performer manifold (which isn't as tall.) Okay so-far so-good. The trouble is that I have fond hopes of eventually switching to tuned-port fuel injection. The Edelbrock manifold is a duel-plane manifold. The TA-Performance SP-1 manifold is single-plane. As far as I can understand the theory of intake manifolds, the Edelbrock would serve my needs just fine. It provides better performance at lower RPM and my goal is a workhorse wagon and tow-vehicle. What I haven't been able to figure out is how the single-plane versus duel-plane might effect the porting for fuel injection. The kicker is that while SP-1 manifold has clearance problems - it does so only with a carburetor. I assume, that with tuned-port fuel injection, it is possible to use low profile air intake and - close the hood! So to make my long story longer - is there any incentive to go with a single-plane intake manifold for a car with tuned-port fuel injection? (or does fuel injection work just as well either way?) As long as I'm asking, of the roughly half a dozen available intake manifolds available for big-block Buicks, is there any favorites for modification to port-tuned fuel injection? If so, any special considerations I need to keep in mind? Thanks in advance to Buick engine high-tech gurus! Cheers, Edouard P.S. Forget it! No cutting holes in the hood to make it fit! P.P.S.Looking back over my notes from V8Buick I see at least one recommendation for a dual-plane manifold and fuel-injection. So sorry if the question is redundant. *Sigh*, the miseries of information overload! :shock:
I don't have the answer to your fuel injection Q but I was able to get an SP1 on my 65 w/ a drop base air cleaner and stock hood. It is tight but worked out for me. Good luck w/ your project. FWI - I would use the either the SP1 (which in my case fit) or the SPX which I haven't tried but are both single planes. Also those FAST throttle bodies are shorter than a Holley. Good luck!!
No worries, Edouard. I don't see anything wrong with a dual plane if it fits your camshaft preference and performance expectations. By the way, TPI usually refers to the GM tuned port system, specifically the tuned-length manifold runners, so for the sake of talking about a generic system on a single or dual plane intake manifold originally designed for a carburetor, look for MPFI (multi point/port fuel injection) info. Both the TA SP1 and Edelbrock intakes will require fuel injector bungs to be welded in place, the Edelbrock setup will need a little more fab work since the siamesed runners are at a different height between the paired ports. There are some lower profile throttle bodies out there, so research will tell you what your clearance issues might be. Both the TA SPX and SP1 are 1.5" taller than the stock Buick and Edelbrock manifolds to the best of my recollection. Devon
I'd have to dig up a picture, but I found with the SPX intake (way tall?) and a standard 1,000cfm throttle body (half the height of a carb), the over all height of where the air cleaner sits is "about" the same. I didn't do a before/after measurement because I was sure the SPX/TB would be taller than the Edelbrock Performer and Q-jet, but now I'm not so sure.
Check out various throttle bodies, Accel, Wilson etc and I think you'll find that most are about 1 1/2 inches shorter than a carb, that will help. If you're planning to have a lower rpm'd application I'd go with a dual plane as I did. A little harder to fab but well worth it. The main reasons most use a single plane is because they are easier to machine and most of the inherent low speed difficiencies (i.e. puddling etc.) can be tuned out with a good system. Keep us posted on your build. Mark
Here are some pictures for reference. Ah, here are some pictures I took comparing the heights. (No cracks on the radiator hose! =P ) Slight perspective difference, but really the change is small over all. Edelbrock Performer and Q-jet. SPX and Summit 1,000cfm throttle body.
As to this, can you really kill the torque of a BBB? How much are you looking to tow? Easily tows this little trailer with a 600+lb engine. 26" Tire, 3.08 gears, .64 OD. TA118 Cam. I don't know what this aero dynamic brick weighs. Last time I towed it I had the 3.70 gears in it, with 26" tall tires and .64 OD, TA118. I don't expect any issues with the 3.08 gears and TA212 cam, in it now, at highway speeds. May have to go to 4th gear (1:1) on the steep hills.
So manifold basically independent of EFI? (Re: Best manifold for fuel injection?) Dear SilverBuick, Mark, Devon, and offbrand Racing, Thanks to everyone for all your replies. So just to make sure I'm on the same page. Sounds to me like I can basically pick an intake manifold independently of the fuel injection setup. Even if I want to have injectors installed, either type of intake manifold is perfectly suitable (so long as one can get in the required plumbing installed.) TA-Performance has an EFI installation service for the intake manifolds they sell and they claim they can convert the Edelbrock Performer manifold. So if TA-Performance can have it done - it must be possible! So (at the moment) it seems to me that I'm better off to use the Edelbrock Performer manifold. Since it is a dual-plane manifold, it will provide more power at low RPM which is better for a tow-vehicle. It will also make easy to close the hood (also very handy for a tow-vehicle or . . . . any vehicle! :laugh Thanks again to everyone! Cheers, Edouard :beer
Does anyone have pics of a B4B or a Performer with the injector holes in it? I'm looking to go with a mechanical injection system and curious how either of those manifolds look after being drilled and tapped.
Well yours will be different. The holes you need will look more like you'd have for nitrous nozzles than for regular injectors. Imo just use a single plane, you're giving up a bunch by going mechanical anyway. Again jmo.
For a street driven vehicle these would be my choices in order of preference: 1. Dual Plane 2. Single plane 3. Custom sheet metal or composite intake I switched from the EB Performer to an SP1 and I have to say the loss of torque down low was immediately noticeable. Granted, over 4200 rrpms the SP1 pulls like crazy but for me, it wasn't worth the swap. I would imagine with your huge car, you'll want as much low end as you can get. Single plane's are the easiest to convert to MPFI just because of how the runners are set up. But, if you look in TA's catalog they have a picture of their 350 dual plane intake setup for MPFI so it's not THAT hard. Obviously, if you have the cash a custom manifold with tuned runners would be ideal but for a street car, probably wouldn't be very practical.
Towing aspirations (Re: manifold for fuel injection?) Dear TheSilverBuick (and V8 Buick gang), Just a quick reply to this question in particular: Actually the only thing I have to "tow" right now is rack for my bike. So I don't have any concrete "mission impossibles" for the car at the moment. However, when I was growing up with the car, we pondered getting a large trailerable cabin sailboat. However, the car's existing 300 cid V-8 sure didn't look up to the task. I would like to give myself the capability to handle something like that or a smaller Airstream travel trailer. So maybe something as heavy as 3000-5000 pounds GVWR. The car seems to have a stout enough frame for something as demanding as that. One of my "examples" that has inspired me to try this stunt used a 65 Buick wagon as a tow car for take his 68 Skylark custom (on a trailer) to the Buick Gran Sport Nationals http://www.gmcguy.com/1965_buick_special_station_wagon.html. This story has been an inspiration to me - and a warning! Beyond that I'm trying to be as conservative as seems appropriate for things like fuel-economy. However, no trailer yet - all my money is going into the car! :grin: Cheers, Edouard
I also wrestled with this issue a couple of years ago - unfortunately my project is currently on hold. I resolved as follows: fast 1000cfm throttle body and SPX milled down 3/8 inch by TA performance. Net height slightly less than stock manifold with rochester. If you find a better combo, please let me know - I haven't. Good luck!
BTW, has anyone has success in using the extra holes tapped on the backside of the SPX for meth/H2O or nitrous + fuel ??
Check out these elbows and try figuring out if any of them provide what you need. They may have better clearance and allow you to use the LS1/2 or Ford 5.0 style throttle bodies for an easier install. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/efi/intake_elbows.shtml I swear to god I'm not an ad robot. It just sounds like it when I talk sometimes :laugh:
I understand the thread is old but I though I could help you guy's out alittle. Mike Moran of Moran Motorsports is an turbo gurue and he can lead you guy's in the rt direction.
