Barroom car trivia:

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by 1972Mach1, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    • that was the ‘Turbo-Glide’.
    • RE the early Dodge emblem; not sure it was intended to mean the Star of David at all. In my long wanderings in the World of the Vintage, back around 1900, things were a lot less ‘established’ WRT symbolism. Exposure of a given symbol was frequently regional rather than international, and -for example- there would be multiple companies in the same industry with the same basic names, and there was often little fallout. It’s certainly possible that the Dodge boys approved a symmetric star-esque emblem because they liked it’s graphic presentation. There was a lot more graphic elements in furniture, wall paper, building facades, print, etc then, but with today’s relative ornamental blandness, the Star of David is all we ‘see’.
     
  2. 442w30

    442w30 Well-Known Member

    Just like the Brazilian Galaxie, Argentina had the Falcon and made it their own. Here's a slew of images that show some of the differences well after this generation of Falcon was put to rest (1963).

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Whatever it was, it had the GR on the dash. As to the star of David, you may well be right - but it supports my statement hat nobody knows for sure.
     
  4. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Supposedly the triangle represents the Greek letter "Delta", and the Dodge brothers interlocked them because they were essentially inseparable as car designers.
    Ask Henry Ford what he thought of them, and to further prove that the Dodges weren't Jewish, Henry would never had hired them if they were, he was a notorious and unrepentant Anti-Semite. He was largely responsible for publishing an English translation of the fictitious "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which was a nasty piece of work put out to discredit Judaism by the Czarist Okhrana in the late 19th century. They used it to justify their pogroms. By the 1930s old Henry and Adolf were on a first name basis, which is maybe why Ford got largely left alone by the Nazis during the war.
     
  5. BBBPat

    BBBPat Well-Known Member

    Nobody knows for sure why the original Dodge trademark incorporated the star of David. The Dodge brothers were not Jewish.

    Not much different than a Kissel Kar...
     
  6. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    Actually, he made a formal & public apology, and once he discontinued the Dearborn Independent in '27, he no longer expressed anti-Semitic attitudes/statements publicly. As far as the public saw, that amounted to an effective repentance. That newspaper also reflected HF's staunch anti-war viewpoint, but of course FoMoCo became one of the largest war armament suppliers of all. People do change.

    Disingenuous hyperbole. They never met nor spoke.
     
  7. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    At the time that he was dealing with the Dodge brothers, Henry was anti-Semitic. Interestingly, he was not racist and hired a considerable number of non-white employees, and was one of relatively few employers who paid minorities the same wages as white employees; later in life he did change his attitude towards Jews however.
     
  8. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    The FE series also included the 360, 406 and 410 engines. I believe there was also a 396 version, although I've never heard of it.
     
  9. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Looks like it was a 390/391;

    http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/m-table-c.htm
     
  10. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    Also 360/361.
     
  11. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

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  12. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    Here's another Ford trivia item. On 1971 Mustangs, the VIN's 5th character didn't specifically designate between the 429 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet engines. It only told you if the car had Ram Air or not. If you had a "J" code, that was Ram Air, "C" code was not. Many people believe the J code was the SCJ engine.

    Ford did a similar thing with the 351 4V engine that year, "Q" code was Ram Air, while "M" code wasn't. The Boss 351 was an "R" code.
     
  13. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    True; but they did write letters to one another, mostly Hitler in admiration of Ford, and Ford politely responding and requesting that he goes away.
    Ok, I was aware of the apology, and it was done largely to combat a slump in sales due to his antisemitism. In fact, all customers of Ford's cars were to receive the Independent, which was another reason he wound it down, it and his viewpoints were costing him money and rightly so. And while people do change, a Leopard rarely changes his spots. Ford was nothing if not headstrong and incredibly opinionated. What he did to his own son should have illustrated that, it took Edsel years to convince Henry to finally modernize the T by replacing it with the A. It was only because the industry had passed him by and was offering far more car than he was that finally swayed his perception, but even then, not entirely.
    He on his own was unrepentant; "According to Pool and Pool (1978), Ford's retraction and apology (which were written by others) were not even truly signed by him (rather, his signature was forged by Harry Bennett), and Ford never privately recanted his antisemitic views, stating in 1940: "I hope to republish The International Jew again some time.""
    He also was awarded the Grand Cross to the German Eagle in 1938, [​IMG]And it wasn't until 1942 he took action to finally stop the publication of the "International Jew" and it was only after the war and when the Nazi atrocities were shown to him, that he finally stopped. (he had a stroke apparently) And yes, he was a pacifist, and he blamed the first war as well as the second one on "German-Jewish bankers". His personal viewpoints are why car companies have big PR and HR departments. The man for all his genius and what he did for American auto industry should have kept his mouth shut, he might have had a better reputation in the end.
     
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  14. 442w30

    442w30 Well-Known Member

    This is partially true, and here's why:

    Ford never considered a SCJ an engine. Hence, in 1969-70, when the 428 CJ was at its peak, there still was only Q (no ram air) and R (with ram air). The Drag Pack, which turned a CJ into a SCJ, had no bearing on the VIN code.

    This was also true for the 1970 429 CJ that was introduced for the Fairlane series: C (no ram air) and J (with ram air), which was carried into 1971 for the Mustang.

    However, only in 1970, Mercury did something different:

    Q = 428 CJ whether it had ram air or not
    C = 429 CJ whether it had ram air or not

    That being said, yes, many people think R = SCJ and J = SCJ.

    This is absolutely not true.

    Q = 351 CJ, which was introduced mid-year 1971 and continued into 1974 (1973 for the Mustang).

    M = basic 351 4v that was discontinued after 1971.
     
  15. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    Penpals. Actual letters. Un-huh.
    I think you might find it interesting/enlightening to read more deeply into the life of Henry Ford.

    What slump? And due to what?
    The roughly 2 year period the articles in question were published in the Dearborn Independent were (IIRC) 1920-1922.
    Ford sales by calendar year:
    1920 463,451
    1921 971,610
    1922 1,301,067
    1923 2,011,125
    1924 1,922,048
    1925 1,911,706
    1926 1,554,465
    1927 399,725

    By '25 even, the Model T was surpassed by the industry, but still enjoyed widespread consumerism because it was dirt cheap, familiar & versitile. And if you're going to point to '27, Ford plants were shuttered for most of the year retooling for the Model B/A. Ford was #1 in US sales from 1906 (pre-dating the T) thru '26 inclusive, and had regained the lead for '29 (1.5M) (after that, Ford & Chevy regularly traded the lead). There was no 'anti-Semitic fallout sales slump'; it was solely product- and industry-based.
     
  16. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Uh huh, and I did. He did a great many good things, and he also did a great many bad ones, he was human and subject to human failings. He was very much a product of the late 1800s, and as he aged his thinking didn't change much. He had his best-before day somewhere around 1915, after that, technology and normal societal evolution started to pass him by. He most definitely wasn't the kind of person you could sit and have a beer with, let alone a tea. His idea of a perfect society was pretty backward by 1925, and began to become ridiculous, like my father's generation pining for the 50s. His personal standards were also broadcast to his employees who were forced to tow his line or else, and that meant morally as well as on the production floor. Yes, he paid them handsomely and was one of the first to increase safety standards, but read some of the accounts of what people had to go through to work there in those early days, it's no surprise that unions sprang up and labour mobilized. And Ford made them pay for that too. He was not a nice man; in fact, I don't think anyone on this board would have lasted 10 minutes with him.
    I don't read the bios done by the apologists though, since the subjects all seem to be horribly misunderstood and really went on to repent and help old ladies across the streets and that sort of thing. The point here is that Ford was an anti-Semite, and his viewpoint did influence sales to a point, but that point is largely moot because the industry had passed him by and it was only inevitable that the others would eventually make better cheap cars than the Model T.
    I'm not going to further belabour this.
     
  17. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    IMO, "tidbits of info" [via the O/P] should be verified fact, not conjecture or conspiracy theories. :shrug:
     
  18. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    I find it difficult to believe Ford didn't consider the 429 SCJ an engine, especially since I once owned a 429 SCJ Mach 1. Two main differences between the CJ and SCJ were carburetor and camshaft. The CJ used a Quadrajet carb while the SCJ used a Holley. The CJ used a hydraulic cam while the SCJ used a solid cam.

    Have you ever visited this site? http://429mustangcougarinfo.50megs.com/

    I used to frequent it years ago when searching for my old Mach 1. Its members are very knowledgeable.

    As for the 351 engine code variations, I stand by what I said. It's also believed the H code 351 2 bbl engine could be had Ram Air while the M code 4 bbl engine was not. However I lost that verification when my old computer took a dump.
     
  19. 442w30

    442w30 Well-Known Member

    If Ford considered it a different engine, why didn't the company give it its own engine code?

    Likewise, it's strange that Ford gave it a different engine code whether it had ram air or not. I'm sure they had their reasons.

    But Ford was not the only company to add heavy-duty equipment to cars equipped with digger gears--Mopar did the same with the Super Track Packs, although most of the HD equipment was added supporting the engine, like bigger radiator, Dana axle, etc.

    My initial response to you was to show that the thing with the different engine codes, and the Drag Pack, were true for the 428 as well.

    You can stand by it, but it's wrong: "Ford did a similar thing with the 351 4V engine that year, "Q" code was Ram Air, while "M" code wasn't. The Boss 351 was an "R" code."

    Ram air was an accessory option and did not change the engine designation of the 351.

    The H-code 351-2 was available with ram air from 1971-73.

    The M-code 351-4 was available with ram air in 1971, its last year.

    The Q-code 351-4 was available with ram air in 1972 for part of the year, and that was that. This is the only one I'm not 100% sure on because the 1971 version is very very rare, and I think the 2bbl. was the only one available with ram air in 1973.
     
  20. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    In ‘64 at Pontiac, you could get a 4-spd car with a rear axle as aggressive as 4.30.
    But in both the Roto HydraMatic and the Super HydraMatic, you could go one higher; all the way up to a 4.55 ratio.
    There were 7 ratios available behind the 4-spd, and 11 ratios behind an automatic (2.69 ~ 4.55).
     

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