Alignment Numbers for Radial Tires on a '69 GS

Discussion in 'The whoa and the sway.' started by BuickV8Mike, Mar 6, 2020.

  1. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    I'm pretty sure the cause of the poor shifting is all the pulling on the shifter before they released the column lock via moving the key to the first position. Not very happy, especially after telling them all about it when I dropped it off. :mad:
     
  2. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    Ouch! I don't want to shake hands with that guy if he was able to bend the shifter rods. Did they kick it or something?
     
  3. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    Maaannnn - bummer. Alignment shops that do older cars are so hard to find. Then when they screw up like that it makes some folks move on to a Prius. :mad: Carbs, manual shift, points, shims all seems to be so mysterious to some mechanics. I don't know how many times I've had to explain a choke to a dude. Yes, you push on the gas to start it. Yes you have to lift your foot when it cranks. o_O That's why most of my cars have vintage tags! ;)
     
  4. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    Here's where they left it. Busy busy...

    15838981551292420160885365253615.jpg
     
  5. 1973gs

    1973gs Well-Known Member

    Way too much camber on the left, and the caster is terrible. You always want slightly more caster on the right to offset the crown of the road, or at least equal caster. The excessive camber on the left may be counter acting the low caster on the right preventing the car from pulling right, but you will wear the outside edge of the left tire. There should never be more than 1/2* difference in cross caster and cross camber. Is the steering wheel straight? Did they say that there was some reason that they couldn't get the alignment correct, or do they think that it is good? Does your car have manual steering?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  6. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    The steering is marginal, but haven't had a chance to drive it much as I just got it running again. They really shouldn't have accepted the work. Wanted to keep working on it and said I could pay when complete when I requested. When I drove home and had the shifting issues...It was decided it would never go back. Should have listened to Larry, as he asked if I should have give them a second chance long ago? :(
     
  7. Darron72Skylark

    Darron72Skylark Well-Known Member

    Man, that alignment looks dreadful! I’ll bet you could have done better with a driveway “farmer” style alignment!
     
    Lucy Fair likes this.
  8. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    I'd like to try one. Is there a good explanation how anywhere. I'd really like to understand how front and rear shims affect caster and camber.
     
  9. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    A mechanic buddy did mine after all new Moog parts in 2002, polyurethane bushings upper and lower.

    He ended up with 3/4* positive left caster, 1* positive right. To allow for road crown.
    Camber was 1/4* positive left, 1/4* positive right.
    Toe in 1/8". It runs straight down the road, can let go of the wheel for a decent amount of time. No noticeable excessive tire wear. He said positive caster is good, but too much will allow tires to tilt / / when turning and wear inside & outside corners prematurely.
     
  10. 2manybuicks

    2manybuicks Founders Club Member

    It may be wishful thinking, but maybe one day I can put this good info to use on my car. Thanks, I hope.

    (No that is not a coronavirus reference, just a statement of fact regarding body shop prison.)
     
  11. My3Buicks

    My3Buicks Buick Guru

    Haven’t looked I the service manual, Are there different alignment specs for cars that have the optional radials?
     
  12. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    No, the big switch to radials started in 1974 or so. Maybe after that, alignment specs changed, I'd have to look at maybe a 75 or 76 Chassis manual.
     
  13. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Negative camber tilts the top of the tire in at the top, positive camber tilts it out at the top. This is looking at the tire from the front of the car.

    Caster tilts the top ball joint backwards (+ caster) or forwards (- caster) in relation to the lower ball joint.

    Camber changes in the front tires as you go from full suspension extension to full compression. In our 64-72 A body cars, the camber goes positive as the suspension compresses. This is a big reason why our cars under steer when pushed hard into a corner. Think of a car turning hard into a corner. look at this GS,
    HardTurn.jpg
    In a hard left turn, the outside tire (R/S) suspension compresses, the inside suspension extends. Wheel camber goes positive on the outside tire, negative on the inside tire. The positive camber tilts the tire out at the top causing the tire to roll over onto the edge of the tread and sidewall. That causes the tire to slide, and the car to under steer. The A body cars had positive camber gain built into them. Sway bars improve handling in part by limiting that body roll (suspension compression and extension) and the resultant camber change. Later cars had negative camber gain in the front end. That outside tire camber went negative instead of positive. That caused the tire to stand up straighter and not roll over onto its edge. There are ways to convert our cars to negative camber gain, think taller spindles or taller ball joints.

    Caster improves straight line stability. It makes the wheels want to go straight. Think of casters on a piece of furniture. You can push that piece of furniture in any direction and the wheels line up in that direction. The axis of rotation of the wheel is offset forwards or backwards from it's attachment point. Caster is a big reason why your steering wheel returns to straight away if you let go of it in a turn. Caster increases steering effort, not a big deal with power steering. Caster also causes a camber change as you turn the tires from lock to lock. Ever see a Mercedes Benz parked with the wheels turned to full lock? You'll notice the inside tire camber noticeably positive. The outside tire will have negative camber although this will not be as noticeable because the inside tire always turns sharper than the outside tire. That is one reason why MB's have a reputation for handling, they use something like 10* of positive caster.

    Unfortunately, our A body suspensions do not lend themselves to large amounts of positive caster. You can put some negative camber into our front ends to help handling. Offset upper control arm shafts can help as well.

    In our front ends, adding shims to both upper control arm bolts will increase negative camber. If you remove a shim from one bolt and put it into the other shim pack, you can tilt the spindle backwards or forwards increasing caster, negative or positive. Positive caster, as much as you can get, is the way to go. The more shims you have on a bolt, the less stable it becomes, one reason that limits our adjustment range. In the aftermarket, there are solutions to all of this. As mentioned before, taller spindles, taller ball joints, revised tubular upper and lower control arms. From the 1971 Buick Chassis Manual,
    AlignmentShimming.JPG AlignmentShimming2.JPG
    AlignmentChart1971.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    Lucy Fair likes this.
  14. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    Larry, You are the man! This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you kindly. Out of curiosity, where is this info from? Best regards, Mike
     
  15. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Radial tires also help handling as well. The radial tire construction allows the tread to stay in better contact with the road in part because the sidewalls allow it to.
     
  16. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    The Buick Chassis Manual, in this case 1971.:)
     
  17. My3Buicks

    My3Buicks Buick Guru

    Radials were an option on Buick’s from 67-69 then they went back to bias until 74
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  18. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I think radials go back to 1948:D. That isn't the question though. The question, your question is were there optional alignment specs in the Chassis Manuals for radials. Not that I know of, but I am going to see if I can find any.
     
  19. My3Buicks

    My3Buicks Buick Guru


    Yes, that was the question, I know for a fact they were first introduced in 67 then pulled for 70 on Buick’s
     
  20. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Took a look at the 1974 and 75 Chassis manuals. I don't see any optional alignment specs for radials. They do list them in the tire sections of the manuals.
     

Share This Page