65 Gran Sport -Q-Jet, Manifold and Tom's rockers comparison race results

:laugh: ^^^ Exactly what I was thinking.

 

That'll happen, Doc! Musta had a 3bbl!

All I can say is Tommy's a hot shoe. And musta caught it right, in between headwinds. That's my excuse.

Really, really fun day. And if I've never said it before, I'll say it now: that 401 is a sweetheart....it has to have over 500 runs on it (on top of 74k and 50 years), and doesn't miss a beat. I beat it unmercifully, and it just asks for more. I've got faster cars, but this one is the most satisfying....it looks sounds, comes apart and goes back together all beautiful. Will forever be my favorite motor.

As a teaser:

 

OK, again this will be long winded so forgive me:

After last week's session at LVD, I pretty much figured out the best set up was Tom's Rockers, 200+/- lbs valve springs, the 800 CFM Q-Jet and the Big Plenum Manifold. After all the work, we wound up running an ave. 14.80 @ 92.25 at a newly calculated 1900 ft. DA, or a corrected 14.53 @ 93.91 at sea level.

But as I drove the car with the new valve springs, my old lifters were bleeding down pretty bad when parked, so I decided to go with solid lifters and hollow 5/16 pushrods. I got them from Carmen Faso, attractively priced..I initially thought it would save weight on the valvetrain, but when I weighed the solids vs. oil filled hydraulics, and the solid OEM pushrods vs. the larger 5/16 hollow rods, the old and new components weighed exactly the same. That surprised me.

I put the lifters in and adjusted them... I got the car to run as quiet as a car with a bad speedo cable. Tom came along at the track and made final lash adjustments with a more knowledgeable touch, was able to get it to the point where you think it might just need an oil change....pretty sweet -(don't read that, PMSCDR people - it just needs an oil change...)

Tom came up again and met me at the track, we made 21 runs. I made 6 before he got there, then we traded off : Tom made 6, I made the remaining 9. The air was great, the DA started at 178 ft at 10 AM, and when we wrapped up at 2 PM it was 750 ft. That's as sea - level-ish as you're gonna get.

We started with 12 degrees initial timing, 3/4 tank of fuel and a race weight of 3900 with me in it (Doc will be proud to know I took out about 85 lbs of trunk mat, floor mats, jack, etc..), The runs went like this:

1 & 2 - My AF meter showed the car was at 11.5 on WOT, so I started with very lean DB .0697 secondary rods. I run a back to back 14.82 and 14.73 or an ave 14.78 @ 91.53. Both runs match my best ever 60 fts at 2.10. As a bonus, I shut down a beautiful stroker 383 68 Road Runner.

3 & 4 - I switch to my old go-to CK .0527 rods and am back on the track in 10 minutes, I run a 14.66 and 14.69 and gain a little over 1 mph for an ave of 14.68 @ 92.64. A new low ET (down from a previous best of 14.70), and this is obviously going to be a good day. But my 60fts are up to 2.13 and 2.12 - I chalk that up to the car being hotter

5 & 6 - If a little is good, a lot must be better: I switch to rich DA .0443 rods and run 14.71 and 14.69, for an average of 14.70 @ 92.60. Almost no change, but my 60fts drop again to 2.12 and 2.15. I don't notice and leave the DA's in. On the 5th run I shut down a full race 70 SS 454 - I tree him, he runs a better 60 ft but leans in it too hard to catch me and goes up in smoke on the 1-2 shift and backs out of it. I beat a lot of people that way in MUCH, MUCH faster cars. At least this guy knew to back out - I've also seen people hit the wall trying to salvage a bad run....

7 & 8 - Tommy shows up, and I pull the power steering belt off. He thinks we'll gain nothing because the PS pump is free wheeling while going straight, I know it'll get me 1 mph. I run a 14.64 and 14.74, for an ave of 14.69 @ 93.14 - there's most of my 1 mph! Told ya, Tom!

9 & 10 - Tom takes the wheel, he tells me he hasn't run on the track for years - 5 + maybe? - his first run he spins the tires and has a terrible launch which carries through the run: 15.25 @ 92.57. I am about to write him off when he stages for his second - and he runs a 14.57 @ 93.99. Damn! He has beaten my best in my own car, only the 2nd time behind the wheel! I ask him what he did, he says he flashed the converter off the line, as opposed to my 2000 rpm pre-load. he also short shifted a little by letting off the gas at 4700-4800 rpm. I'm still letting the car shift itself at 5000. It windmills less now with the solids, but you can still feel it nose over...Why didn't I think of that?

11 - 14 - Tom feels that the windmilling may be because the car is running too rich at high rpm. We park the car, Tom adjusts the lash while I drop in leaner AK .0567 rods. I take the next two for 14.64 and 14.62, Tom runs the next two at 14.67 and 14.85 (an experiment in short shifting) -a 4 run average of 14.70 @ 92.93. But without Tom's experiment, we're talking 14.65 @ 93.13. Considering the DA at this point is up about500 ft to 670, that's still progress.

15 - 21 - As a nod to Doc, I hook up my super duper fresh intake Dryer hose from the air cleaner to below the radiator support, Oldsmobile style. We also swap in my favorite old CK rods to go another step leaner. Then we run out the clock... I take two, Tom tales two and I take another three it goes like this:
14.66 @ 93.81
14.67 @ 93.06
14.61 @ 93.56
14.59 @ 94.50
14.69 @ 93.90
14.61 @ 94.52
14.64 @ 94.02

Tom hits another 14.5x run! I hit a couple 14.61's but still can't catch a break and break into the 14.5's . I do however get a new MPH record at 94.52.

With a DA of 750, that's an overall average of 14.64 @ 93.91 for the last 7 runs. In fact, 15 of the 21 runs were in the 14.6's or better. Wow! MPH is back up, but I still have a kinda crappy 60 ft ave. of 2.15....if I could get that .05 back on the top end it'd be another 10th.

So what did I learn?

1. I've said it before:the more I think I know, the more I know I don't know. The car is gonna do what it wants to do, despite the best efforts of anyone. All the theoretical DA corrections in the world sometimes don't mean anything on the concrete....Ultimately, the number is the number.....

2. Speed costs Money, but it doesn't have to cost a lot...for all of these mods, all in, I spent 1700.00 across the rockers, trick valve springs, pushrods, lifters. intake and carb: all bolt on parts that I can transfer to another motor tomorrow, or sell and recoup my costs. No machine work, no assembly work, etc.. all this from a primarily stock and tired 74k 401 with lousy 135 psi per cyl. and plenty of blow-by. That's 300.00 a tenth, for the beancounters, and it's all as liquid as cash. (But don't buy my used lifters...probably not a good idea)

3. Nailheads like CFM - the 800 CFM carb was a great early addition, but the remaining work completed the package. The one part that really got ripped off in this test was Bob's big plenum manifold.. With all the lift and RPM mods, it would be a great test to try it now against the stocker. On the other side of the coin, it's a real endorsement to how effective the Doc mod really is for a minimum of work...

4. Tom knows what he's doing, and he knows how to drive - 2nd run on a totally unfamiliar car, he beats my 5 years of experience with the same car. Five plus years away from the track, and he's cutting lights from .185 to .085 right out of the gate. In the middle of the dirt parking lot pits with no light, he got those solid lifter lash adjustments dead balls on. Both days, people came by to watch him work, and were astounded that we were that far into the motor at the track....

5. Doc knows what he's talking about - This was a 15.6 car when I started. The cheapest easiest stuff I did all came from Doc's tips on the sticky. Before I had spent a dime. I was down 3 tenths. Consider Doc's tips your baseline (within reason, anyway - I didn't scrape off all my undercoating)

6. Suspension - All the HP in the world is no good if you cant launch...I'm holeshotting cars on drag radials every time I go, with skinny reproduction redline radials meant for car-show duty. It's because the weight transfers, and the nose lifts. I learned a lot at the NE GS/GN Dave Morgan suspension seminar and put it to immediate use.

7. The Rockers work, the Lifters completed the package - Finally something that lives up to the hype. This car is now averaging in the 14.6's, a number that it have never hit before...I tried to do this test so that we would be able to see and quantify the results of each individual change, but I now know it's just not that simple. By the seat of my pants, I know Bob's manifold brought a lot to the table, but needed other components to let it do it's job. The same could be said of the other changes.

8. Who's right, Excel or my @ss? - The numbers tell all, and they lie. According to the stats, the most effective change was the 750 to 800 CFM carb.. but my butt knows better. By the seat of my pants, it was the rockers, followed closely by the lifters and Bob's manifold. That's the exact opposite of what the numbers show - I cant explain that.

9. Half a second doesn't sound like much - But when it's at the upper limit of an engine's potential, you scrap for ever decimal place....I read about people who do a thing and claim to be X amount faster and alarms go off in my head. I may have been guilty of that 4-5 years ago. I look back, and refuse to believe I gained .2 from the AFB rod and jet changes. If I had all the 10ths I claimed today. I'd be running in the 10's.......

10. The best racing isn't necessarily the fastest - This is not my fastest car, but the most competitive..my best racing days have been up against all sorts of stuff...Diesel Chevy pickup, Turbo Subaru wagon, 68 Road runner....they were all evenly matched and it became a driver's race...on the flip side of the coin, I've run against much faster stuff and won, because I jumped them and they got anxious and made a mistake. I'm not afraid to put this car up against anything.. I may get my @ss handed to me, but the other guy always comes back to tell me how I surprised them, even if only for a second or two...



So now that I've gotten this car into the 14.5's on the same matching numbers motor (my original goal), I'm gonna back off a little until the next motor is ready. I've totally pushed my luck on this motor, but it's done everything I've asked and more. (Although my wife was kind enough to point out that I really haven't achieved my goal, Tom did - thanks sweetie)

So with that, I'm probably gonna run one more time this year: next weekend with the Supercar Shootout guys on the 19th (http://supercarraces.com/main.html) - I've run with them before and posted mediocre numbers, but had a ton of fun running other like-minded guys...and maybe just maybe I'll break into the 14.5s with my own car.

I hope that my new motor will be ready for next spring, and then we start again.. but this time with a different focus: Pure Stock . We get back to the Squarebore and AFB, hydraulics and stock rockers and I hope to run with the PSMCDR folks in Michigan next fall. (http://www.purestockdrags.com/) A bucket list thing for me...

Then the long awaited 3 bbl. vs Q-Jet challenge. Doc will be pleased to know his rare, rare Holley 3bbl is in hermetically sealed storage awaiting the day when it will wreak havoc on the drag strip once again. Women will look away, and cover their children's eyes. It's just that much carb.....

Thanks to all who offered help and advice (Doc, Tom, Walt and Bob to name a few) and I hope this helps someone down the road.

 

Well,,, Your post put a lump in my throat....:grin: Love that car....

 

:TU: very cool info and you've found out the Tom T. is just an 18 year old internally :3gears:

If you want to try a set of Jet Hot coated GSCA headers that are brand I can make that happen for ya.

 

I've been following your thread all along and admiring both your tenacity, and the cars performance improvements. :TU::TU:

Great to see how well the engine responded to all those tricks too. :beers2:

 

Dugs - I appreciate the offer, but it just so happens I have a set of my own.. GSCA's, just sitting up in the attic, waiting for the day.

But fact is, I'm down on headers. I have them on the 71 and 73, and they are just a royal pain in the @ss. Yes, they make power and they sound cool, but they leak and you cant work around them and seemingly are magnetically attracted to my driveway apron.

I like the stuff people have done with cast manifolds, extrude honing, port matching, etc...if I can go that route, I'll try that first. And on the 65 Gran Sport, the design is just so cool.. I love that drivers side dump tube....I will eventually lower the exhaust and try open manifolds...you just reminded me!

 

It was a fun & rewarding day!!!! These days most "Bolt-on" stuff is hype. There has been no one to my knowledge who has done the meticulous details like Rhett has done. This all goes to prove that with a little time & not a lot of $$$ many can reap the same benefits. I really enjoy doing this & helping others. It's definitely not all about the "Money", but having fun.
Hopefully I'll be able to make it up on the 19th. Haven't seen Ralph in quite awhile. Hell of a nice guy both he & his wife with the fire & enthusiasm still burning after all these years.


Tom T.

 

Sounds like you guys had some fun. Glad your seeing gains. Tom, you did it again :TU:

 

Awesome right up. Love the smokey burnouts in the water box too. Car looks good. That's pretty fast for that old nailhead. Before I had done the cam swap and headers on mine, I ran a best of 14.6. And my dads 65gs convertible is all stock. His best was around a high 14. Most of the time she runs a very consistent 15.0.

 

Thanks Tom! We haven't discussed the little stuff for a while... the Aluminum drums, limit chain, air cleaner mods, sway bar links, etc...

Dan, that sounds about right... these things ran 14.9- 15.3 when they were brand new. A little tired, they run mid 15's from my experience. But if you keep poking at it, a mid 15 car will run mid 14's reluctantly. What's yours running after the header and cam swap? You wont hurt my feelings! I'm in awe of the guys who have modded these things to run with the big dogs - GSGTX, Bob in St. Louis, Johnny's uncle, etc..

 

My best in my 66gs hardtop is a 13.41 at 101.3.That's on radial tires and 3.42 gears. She has the stock block and pistons. I am running a st400 transmission though with the smaller converter out of my st300 on a toggle switch. With just the cam swap, headers I was running around 13.8 with the stock tranny and gears.

 

yep,, Dan,,, lower gears will make a nail come alive for you.... :Brow: The engine does not turn any more rpm,,, but it will get it a whole lot quicker..... put a hole shot on them.... and the tires spin a lot less..... that is the part that amazed me when I went to 4.11's...... :grin:

 

Dan - that's a good running car! I like the 3.42 gear choice and have the ST400 sitting on my garage floor with a V6 converter just waiting for the day. How did you handle the crossmember set up? I've thought about using a 67 crossmember, but I'm looking for a bolt in swap....Don't want to cut and weld this car. I have the correct 67 shifter, rod and console indicator, all I need is the floor pass through and some sort of crossmember set up. There is an aftermarket one, but it totally looks like a summit catalogue special....I want this to look like it was born there.

I had never considered gears much until I got my 71 car, which came with 3.90's. At first I hated them, then as time went on and I ran it a few times I figured out how much I liked them on the track.

I have a 3.42 8.5 rear sitting on the garage floor waiting to go into something....I can either throw it into the 71 and run the 3.90 rear in the 65, or throw it in the 65 and see what 3.42's bring to the party. I like the 3.42 gear in my 73 very much!

I didn't want to throw more gear at this car until I have the new motor in.... Doc, you're right, but it sure does spend a lot more time at 5k or above...I don't want to rev these 50 year old glass pistons any more than I have to. So for now, this is still a low RPM exercise.

Ultimately, since I don't own a trailer, 3.55 or 3.73's might be a good compromise gear. Even with the 3.23s, the car is crossing the line at 4000 rpm so I'm not leaving a whole lot on the table, and Joe has proven they can get the job done...

 

Great thread Rhett...thoroughly enjoyed it and wish I had seen it earlier. Thanks for taking the time to post for us all to enjoy,
Tom Mooney

 

As so far that nothing has blown up, it has been my pleaure Tom.

 

Thanks for this Thread Rhett, It gives me a few ideas I haven't thought about.

PONCH

 

The crossmember wasn't to bad to deal with. It's still the stock crossmember. I just cut the brackets off the frame and rewelded them back a couple of inches. Also shortened the driveshaft. For the shifter I ran a hurst ratchet shifter inside the factory console. It really helped me keep it out of neutral when I was manual shifting.

 

In my opinion, what's all this prove???? The "Nail" what's more air!!!! No matter how it gets this air doesn't matter. A stock 625CFM Carter runs mid 15's or so. Install a 750 Q-Jet & it goes faster. Install an 800CFM Q-Jet & it goes faster still. Install an 850CFM Thermoquad & they were faster still. As well as a 1000CFM Thermoquad. Many have tried this route with a Thermoquad also with good results on "Nails" & 455's also. I'm sure that an 800CFM Edelbrock would do the same as the 800CFM Q-Jet. It's been proven that a square bore manifold flows more evenly than a Q-Jet manifold. No one that I know of has tried this combo. On ALL the carbs. mentioned they ALL have a secondary air flap that will open as much as air demand will require limiting the total amount of air flow to what the engine demands & requires. It's been proven over & over again our "Nails" are just an air pump just like ALL the other engines out there. Where the "Nail" shines is the amount of swirl built into the design of the intake ports. That I know of the best flowing SBC head flows about 2300RPM's of swirl, whereas the "Nail" in stock form flows upwards of around 4000RPM's of swirl. This is what makes the "Nail" so interesting. It doesn't flow the CFM's of other heads, stock or modified, but will still run with the best of them to a certain extent. You must make the engine THINK it's flowing better. One way is a cam swap, but then you lose some of that low end grunt. A longer rod will make it think more positively also as well as a short stroke increase. Not a lot of increase just enough to make it think it's flowing better than it actually does. As it is the heads don't flow well enough, including ported, to be able to support 322 cubes, never the less 401+ up to 462. All this does is lose/limit the RPM potential. Most forget how an engine works. Air which is density creates RPM's, Rpm's create HP. In our cases most don't spin to the plus side of 5000-5800 RPm's, but if we did, let's say to 7000 then the HP would climb. But this requires custom rods & pistons, which most don't want to get into. It's ALL about air flow guys. Remember it's just an air pump just like ALL other engines. What we need to concentrate on is NOT losing too much of the swirl built into the heads. A wrong move with the grinding/cutting wheels can have a disastrous effect & actually make things worse. That's why it's sssoooo important to let someone port the heads who know what they are doing. Of course this ALL costs money as I know of NO ONE that does it solely as a hobby.
Just some more thoughts on the subject at hand. Have a wonderful Sunday ALL!!!


Tom T.

 

Hi Rhett, I also want to say thanks for the effort :TU:. Even though you guys had fun it was a lot of work. Lots of good info. cant wait for your new engine. I am still wondering about your gears, 3.23s are nice but I really like my 373. I am sure you will figure it out, seems like you have a very good handle on the whole set up. Thanks:TU: