I've been following this thread since the beginning, very informative. When I rebuilt my 401, I feel kind of ashamed to say I didn't go through half the trouble and probably trusted the machine shop more than I should have. If anything, I now know what I should be doing the next time around with my 430 when it needs a build. The funny thing is, even though my 401 is sloppy by comparison to this one, it runs well and does what I need. I'm not racing the car, only driving it on long trips. But I'm sure learning a lot...:shock:
Curious to see your piston press jig and thoughts before I comment on that. Are all of the washers you are using for head fasteners hardened? That would definitely affect the torque and distortion. If the acorn nuts aren't hardened enough I'd toss them aside. Were the fasteners you originally tried torqued a few times? They might have needed a few torque cycles to properly stretch, just like rod bolts do. (I wouldn't use any stainless head bolts either) So you straightened out the bores somewhat with a diamond...? Might want to check things with magnification and a good profilometer. The finish isn't really supposed to be '600 grit', that will wear out fast. Maybe it's the plateau you were referring to? That and diamond hones don't 'grit' comparably to stones. I'm sure your friend knows his machine though. Also mildly curious why you didn't have your friend just do this from the get go? I don't think you are leaving enough material for the line hone to clean up. If all even, I'd leave the extra .001 eccentricity, as the bearings already intend that at the parting line anyways. I'm confused by the insistence on perfection, but not ending up perfect and trying to find more fixes. I think I'd set those pistons and rods aside before dismantling them, maybe use a different crank. You can put them all into another block and end up perfect. I can certainly appreciate the persistence and high standards but I think you'd been $$ ahead starting fresh rather than trying to fix things, but alas...it is yours to enjoy in the end. I hope the non-machinists reading this are learning to have an open and communicable relation with their shop, rather than bash and dash from one shop to another, then to finally find a hero to save the day. Most places will do a good job when all expectations are on the table, esp. when they know you are a machinist with gauging to check the work. I'm trying very hard to keep a positive and constructive view in this thread but struggling with so much negativity along the way. This definitely is a saga...
But I'm sure learning a lot...:shock:[/QUOTE] Hey, man... If she runs, and makes you happy, thats awesome. Wish I was already there! haha. Im glad to hear you were helped in some way through these struggles and set-backs.
8ad-f85, I still dont know your name, or else id use it. Yes sir, Attached is a picture of my "Jig" for pressing the pistons off. I found one online for 499.99, but I've never owned one like that, and its severely overpriced... Looks like it'd bend the rod too...? In theory, my simple jig will support the boss of the piston to minimize distortion. I MAY have to hone the pin-bores a touch, according to RACETEC- they didn't seem too worried at all about pressing them off, when most will tell you its a GIANT mistake. Also said to make these full floating while I'm at it, as doing that will correct any distortion to the pin-bores/ Rod bore. Also told me to replace the pins ONLY if they are scored from removal. Either way, encouraged by RACETEC or not, I'm not exactly excited to press them off.. 1. SS Washers and Acorn nuts were sourced directly through ARP. They are all Hardened Alloy SS, and the washers are parallel ground. The studs are Chromoly, which is much closer and "stretchier" to the old stock head bolts, according to ARP. However, the Threads are FINE THREAD for the studs, which obviously changes the effect of the torque applied. Without getting graphically detailed, they simply HELPED my condition, and brought the bores "closer" to Round than I was hoping for even, ESPECIALLY where the bottoms of my bores were OOR. Thats why I decided to use them. Plus, cosmetically, I liked the Acorn Nuts- haven't seen them on another 'Nail yet either. 2. No Sir, Bores have NOT been straightened with the SV-10 Diamond hone. Saturday, we honed the bores w a traditional setup- 280 grit, 400, then a pass or so with 600. Not Plateau honed, by VERY slick w the "600" stones. The SV-10 Diamond hone is at another shop in the area, and i am undecided on whether or not to just stop where I'm at as far as the bores go. The owner is a friend I made along the way, but usually only does contracted race work. I think hell let me squeeze this in though, If i decide thats how I wanna finalize the bores w that extra bit of.... "perfection" 3. The Mains Where you said you'd "leave an extra .001 eccentricity"... To clarify, the bores actually got SMALLER, on the Vertical Y axis by .0002, making them .001 SMALLER than the low spec, leaving me with MORE material to hone/straighten out as the bores move towards the parting line- Simply, the studs seem to pull the Housing bores tighter, closing up some of the "loosness" I observed as I swept through the bore towards the parting line. So, that makes me happy as well. Align hone is still needed though, in my eyes. 4. Would I be better off having started fresh? Probably. A ton cheaper too? Probably. This block has so much time in it so far, id rather build it up from here and have a go at it, and enjoy it. Theres still that '64 block in my floor to build if this tanks in the end... Its just to damn rusty! From lifter bores, to the Mains.... RUSTY! 5. As far as the bash-and-dash thing goes, at NO point did I fail to keep open communication to the previous shops. They failed me miserably, did NOT meet expectations that were agreed upon and discussed in depth, with utmost incompetence, and that is NOT my fault... I do not care to keep looking back on my misfortune. Like you said- if ANYTHING, to those reading and haven't had to deal w that level of failure and pain- Take it from me- if a place starts to give you grief, or starts to veer from what you KNOW is right, RUN, DONT WALK away! Or you risk getting burned. It IS unfortunate, but you'll be better off in the end. It took me 2 massive set-backs with shops costing me parts, money, and time- Not to mention the stress and the toll that takes after a while. Know what you want. Make that clear. Via build sheets, etc... Make your end goal AIR-TIGHT! and idiot proof. If the shop bucks that, chances are, you're not where you need to be. Not saying the readers word, or mine, is the end-all-be-all on everything either- but when you find you're being lied to, etc.... the gigs up. Duh... Im glad I found this guy, Lewis. Like I said, NO advertising and his shop is full of VERY nice work, and he's let me make myself at home in his shop while we correct things, and I'm more than grateful for that. With the mentioning of the SV-10, THATs the step that may be me taking the "perfection" too far.... Look at my update above. What do YOU think of those bores at this point??? Keep honing? Because I aint got much left to hone, and also not much margin for error, as my Ring pack is only good up to 4.2375 This had been a saga when I posted January last year. The light is at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there w me! haha. As always, thanks for the reply and input! Check out the bore #s and the jig attached, if you dont mind. Confirmation bias always makes things a tad easier to deal with.
I see your points much better now, thank you. Text communication and keeping from writing a Tolstoy length book can limit intended interpretaion, I probably picked up on your frustration as negativity. I am still surprised by their lack of wanting to correct something way off though. It's not like these blocks are impossible to find and that it's a numbers matching resto... Enough questionable stuff comes into any shop that requires sourcing different cores and castings from time to time. I have plenty myself that I deem 'less than worthy' for the intended goals. Call them either expendable or short term use only...light duty? (I have a few that would be best suited for a full fill and run 'til failure) The catch 22 for the shop being, "are you paying them to do a complete inspection and make a judgement call?" or are you both taking your chances on a questionable casting? The main line was already too wide along one axis. Bearings sometimes aren't perfect on the back side and you can gain a few tenths stoning the back of them lightly. You can see when they aren't quite perfect. I forget if you had hand deburred the main-line bores before measuring the fitted and torqued shells? For example, I now have several 'new' Pontiac blocks that I believe will not hold the 700hp+ I am expecting from them. Who pays for cleaning and inspection, sonic and pressure testing? Who keeps supplying more blocks? Definitely not accusing you of any misconduct but it generally doesn't fare too well for the customer if they try to hold the shop responsible for the custom pistons if the shop isn't involved in making some decisions for your project. Basically they can't be responsible for beyond what they've done. How much responsibility were you paying them for? (not looking for an answer here, rhetorical). With as much deviation as you've seen using your current selection of fasteners, is it possible that whatever they did was acceptable while in their machine, using the fasteners supplied? (apologies if they used your fasteners, and again...rhetorical) See what I mean by a 2 way street? The finished dimensions are totally your call. My opinion was to set those aside or use a different block if YOU wanted perfection, as this was the reason for running from the 'disastrous' machining. You'd easily recoup your investment rather than re-machine the same parts several times, paying for it each time. You would have 2 short blocks. One perfect by your standards and one maybe defined as 'overhauled'. As far as the line hone, I'd vaguely remembered (maybe incorrectly) that it was too large, but that you had some shells to select from or was contemplating stoning the caps to tighten things up? Maybe that was the first time, you've already reground the crank twice? I forget, too long to re-read. (Sorry for the way this jumps around, I've had to walk away from the computer quite a few times, lol) My comment on the diamond hone was more of a question, I guess. They tear up the material differently than a stone does. What I thought you'd described was a finely finished looking bore. The danger being a couple of things, just going by your description... 1. Using too fine of a grit takes away too much 'valley', with the fine grit only used to trim the peaks...often just the last few tenths of the finished bore. 2. Only honing 'some' of the deviation wouldn't leave a consistent finish all the way around. (maybe they used more than one 'grit' to get to that?) 3. I can't imagine after your troubles of imperfect machining that someone would leave it OOR and face being blasted after the fact if you weren't happy. (obviously, the outcome of this is on you at this point) 4. They know their equipment, what it's capable of, and the procedures to follow. It just stood out as odd the way it was worded is all. If your nice looking jig is flat and can support all the way around the pin boss (to whatever shape it is on that surface), you have reduced the chances of it causing damage from THAT side, as long as you can keep it that way, with the driver pushing straight. The worry on the piston is if there's no deviation, chip or non-parallel surface where the rod's small end contacts the inside of the piston pin boss. I've seen a 'too large' chamfer push a ring shape into the inside edge, tightening it just there. When finished, you should be able to easily slide a pin through the piston with light lube. If distorted slightly, a hone should fix. The usual culprit is some distortion imparted by the rod or aforementioned deviation pressing it's form into the pin boss...reducing it's clearance by a dent or something. Running a tight pin through will show up the spot. I would hone and float. So, I'm not making suggestions as to how to build a Nailhead, I am not defending the shops as if I'd handle things in the same manner or use the same problem solving methods...I am only commenting on what I think is a common sense here and filling in some gaps that could 'possibly' help salvage the situation. I can totally buy into the crappy machining scenario, I've seen it myself. It's tough to conceive them taking the time to show how meticulous they are, spend the time addressing your concerns and end up with such disaster. I'm naturally suspicious.
UPDATE 4-14-17 NEW BORE MEASUREMENTS are attached as a PDF. They are MUCH better now than what I've been staring at for far too long. I was able to stay with the SAME Ring Package Tom and I had planned to use originally (4.233 +5) , however we were VERY close to the end of the usable range of them. The new set of Rings I had to order actually came with a bit more than +5, and the gaps still had to be filed. Keith at Total Seal assured me numerous times they're just fine for the "New Bores", as the tolerances have a few tenths of wiggle room. (We even considered, per his reccomendation, filing 4.250 Rings down if need be, but that didn't seem like the best thing in the world to try) I need to take a moment to measure the new Main Bearing Housings as exactingly as I have the "New" Cylinders. With a quick glance though, the Mains, vertically, were 2.6872 from front to back ( in spec and consistent )! 10-4 and 8-2 measurements varied, but bear in mind, that was a quick measurement and ill update this thread with my NEW Main Bores as soon as I can. Things are looking up finally.
GLAD your finally coming to the end of your saga Will. Hoping it runs better than expected!!!!! Tom T.
THANK YOU TOM! I wouldn't be half as far along as I am without your knowledge, insight, and all your help! ~Should have some time in the next couple days to measure those Main Bores.
I know I am late on this one (I was in the hospital trying not to die when this was written!) but I have always had a return/exchange policy. I knew there where 50 adapters machined wrong by a vendor and all where recalled. Bob of course used this as a way to bash yet another competitor, but there was/is a no charge exchange or repair to the original purchaser on these. They have been discontinued for years now but it is a bit humorous that he changed his original design in favor of a copy of mine. I wish him all the best but it isn't worth being mean to or about people. Cars are supposed to be fun. God bless
I don't want to hijack the great thread so I will make it short . The adaptor was off a little and you were not taking calls. I called bob and I got it fixed. Bob seems to talk to about everyone like that. The adaptor works great . And I will mention that he actually complimented a few of the parts to it as he was getting pissed off...
UPDATE 10-26-17 Sorry for the lapse in updates. Life has its way with your intentions, time, money and plans from time to time, so the build has been monetarily on the back burner, but still at the back of my mind. Anyway, I have finished filling out my Spec Sheets. Mains, Rods, Cylinder Bores, Journals, Bearing clearances etc. are all straightened out, and right where I want them to be with the exception of new cam bearings being installed. I will have to go with another set of Pistons unfortunately, as my new cylinder bores are .005 bigger than originally planned for and coating them that much is seemingly a hit-or-miss ordeal. I'd prefer new pistons, and you'll see why in a second. I have also decided to go a little farther with the porting of the heads than originally planned. At the moment, I plan on sending them out to Mike Lewis in Fresno to have him port them & enhance the combustion chambers while I have the opportunity to re-do the Piston Domes for proper Combustion Ratio. I will also probably be sending him my set of "Toms Rockers" to try to get the wear pattern/sweep pattern on the valve stems a little more centered (see attached pictures) while were at it. This is a known compromise, according to Tom. However, I will say I'm happy to see the added Lift Ratio! .572 Gross Lift / .306 Intake Lobe = 1.86 Ratio .586 Gross Lift / .316 Exhaust Lobe = 1.85 Ratio I think taller valves will help with the sweep pattern. Still wanting to use Beehive Springs as well. LOTS to account for, and its difficult trying to pick a new valve height, or spring from Comp. Waiting on my Hi-Tech Comp valve-length checkers in the mail. They have a 5/16 ball with a .140 Gauge Diameter vs my lifters and the rockers having 3/8 cups. Between Tom and Mike, I'm sure we'll have the heads together the way I foresee them, and ready to set on top of my block in no time. Then, ill CC them and have a new set of Pistons on the way. If anyone has any additional info about the Beehive Springs, keepers, retainers, or possibly taller valves to make a nice package, please let me know! Thanks in advance, and ill try to keep the thread rolling and build going again.
What length valves are you using now? (don't want to re-read the thread) FYI, Comp buys their springs like most others... I'd keep a few in mind until you have valve length down and some caps and locks to play with as they don't always add up the way you plan. If you are patronizing Mike or Tom you are well served to follow the advice they offer, that would be a bargain alongside the price of the work. That and some aren't open to input from the 'net.
Stock length SS Valves I got from Russ Martin. I know with the help of these two gentlemen, the heads will come together as I envision them. Just reaching out for the possibility that we could pick the literal head of someone who had some part numbers to throw at us to simplify things, provided they had a set of Toms Rockers, utilized Beehive springs and used a valve that differentiated from stock to maybe help move the sweep on the valve stem. And I entirely agree with your last remark. Theres a ton of crap to sift through out there. Just digging for gold, here! Those valve-length checkers should be in the mail tomorrow, and give me something to eyeball/play with until I box the heads up for Mike.
12-2-17 For what its worth, SMALL update Roller Rockers are mailed out to Mike at ProTech in Fresno. They're making the long haul from Va, but its been a long time coming. Im excited to see what we come up with, and the finished product aka Heads that flow some 20% better with porting, Toms Roller Rockers, Beehive springs, 11/32 stems etc. More to come soon!
3-6-18 2018 has been a whirlwind so far, and the Buick build has taken a backseat unfortunately until the last few days. I received a call from Mike Lewis, and we are slowly looking at Comp Beehive springs to use as a starting point for the Head Work. Anyone have any other input on these Comp Beehives that would move us along? AKA Part Numbers?! The only other real update I have is that im still considering the Comp PRO-MAGNUM lifters, which apparently are almost a Solid Lifter to compliment the somewhat aggressive ramp rate/high light of my Cam grind. Ive read of noise complaints though, and that they're notoriously hard to adjust ( .003 preload...? ) The springs are holding us up, and Mike doesn't have a spring picked out either. Im still alive and well, and intend to wrap up the Nail as planned.
There are many different beehive springs, you need to match them with your cam. Maybe ask your cam manufacturer what they would recommend?
