No doubt on the crank. With a stiff Chinese crank like the stuff guys are doing with the v6 with a stock block, would be awesome. All that flex in the stocker just runs the webs right out. And with my hairdrier dream I'm gonna need something forged. Maybe one of the venders will win the lottery and make an order for the forgings. Taking the discussion in and lovin it! And someone needs a YouTube vid asking Mr. Manner about the 500+ inch big car study! EPIC!
As long as you have cylinder heads that can keep up that would work out, otherwise its just the torque that would go up while limiting RPM because it runs out of air. That math would probably work better for the torque output though. Its use to be around $100,000 to have the Chinese make the tooling and the first run of around 500 fully machined cranks plus or minus. Not sure what it would be with the tariffs now? And probably would be around twice as much for the tooling to be made here not including a run of cranks? Even if the tariffs were paid by China, not sure if there would be a demand for 500 BBB forged cranks? Could take decades to sell that many cranks! Were would someone put those while they are waiting to be sold? Not to mention the stupid tax laws that taxes inventory! So they would be taxed just sitting there! Of coarse after that first run is sold it get WAY cheaper to get the next run if those were to sell? And if a second run isn't made China will try to find someone else to buy the second run after so many weeks or maybe months? So the next guy gets a better deal and would be able to flood the market with cheaper BBB forged cranks! If someone were to do something like this, a bunch of pre-orders need to be filled to make sure they can sell enough cranks to at least make their $$ back to break even. And even then they are still at risk of loosing. Someone would be better off ordering billet cranks from China because the minimum run would be 10 for around $12 to $15K investment. 10 guys that wanted cranks could even go in together if 10 guys that wanted them at the same time could be found? But then again there is that tariff thing to figure out?
So, you are saying we could get ten buyers together and for $12-1500 each , each of those buyer could get a machined forged Chinese crank? Or am I doing the math wrong? I would think Jim w might be in for one, id be in for one, so we need eight more guinea pigs to give this a try? Or did I read the statement wrong(goes back to read again before I hit post). I guess someone with a relationship with manufacturing in china could make something like this happen. Getting cash down could be difficult with some of the fiascos in the past. Bulldog heads/blocks come to mind. By the time shipping gets figured in it could double the cost. Especially with the tariffs. Something to discuss if an individual with a relationship over there could be found.
Yes, you did the math right. I just looked into the tariff situation, it would seem that the Chinese gov. is subsidizing the tariffs so they shouldn't be an issue on pricing and that IS the shipped pricing.
I can't stomach Chinese stuff.. for the amount of money I am investing with my engine.. yes, a 10k+ short block... If I am going to play, I am going to do it right the first time.
I agree 100% I had the $3k Crower and for what I was planning no way in hell I'd have an Eagle crank in a Tomahawk,..but for for mild bracket engine guys and street bound guys that just want some big CID to have fun with the billet and high end forgings aren't necessary. It's all a pipe dream I get that but it would be nice to have the option
So, with the idea a "guy" could have a chinesium forged crank for $12-2000 shipped, am I on the right track here? I would just want the forging and have my local guy do the machine work or do some kind of group deal were they went to Jim W and he got his guy to do the machine work on it and took some profit. This is an exciting idea/project. Is there an individual or place with the "right" relationship to make a run of ten(or more if they can stomach it) and be able to make a bit for their troubles? Very interesting indeed! Might be a "thing" for the kbr place to get something in the pipe line.
Cheaper Forged Cranks were mentioned as was a cheaper roller rocker option but as we've seen there hasn't been much said about any of that for approaching a year now
Hugger, I understand what you are saying however a four digit crank or a three digit crank still has more than the price of a cast-iron block. the problem with a cast-iron block when I moved away from it was a stability. Yes, lower horsepower levels it is fine however I don't see the point of spending exuberant amount of money on a cast iron block while pushing the torsion the loads of it. If it was me, I would use a stock crank stroke from there and work with what I got. Perhaps, better rods and Pistons.. and then comes the question of... Are you going to use fill?
The forging would be around a 12" diameter forged chunk of billet at the needed length that would just be a big bar of "billet" steel before it gets machined. If I were to order them I would have them make the main and rod diameters around .020" larger(depending on what the crank grind shop I would work with wants left on them?) so they could be finished ground in the USA.
There is no doubt in the fact that a factory crank build can stretch s cast iron factory block right to the end. With the current head selection and some good porting, 464s can go 700, 750, 800 hp without needing 14:1 or massive roller cams which just adds even more pressures. For those that want more an aftermarket block is surely needed for that motor to "live" but that's when the snowball starts going downhill fast. Our buick motors will never be as cheap to build as other far more numerous brands out there. I would love to say buy only American made stuff, but the reality is that's not the world we live in. There is junk stuff from over seas, but there is good stuff too. There are cheap foundries there, and there and better ones too. The idea of finished here state side would more than likely make sure the final dimensions were correct. This is what companies like molnar and others are doing, born off shores, finished here. I would bet if you would trace the roots to most parts being sold new today for alot of older muscle cars, this is more than likely not unusual. Many ppl who want 500 plus cubes.........no matter what the manufacturer of the motor brand is.........are not wanting a motor that only makes 4" or 5" of vacuum, they dont want 12 or 14:1. They want to brag how big their stick is, they want to pull up to BP and fill up, the motor might visit 6200-6500 rpm, but not live there. And I just dont think it requires a $3000 crank to do this. Sure if your going to push the rpms, psi, etc, the odds of a $1500 crank living compared to a $3000 is not the same, but I feel there is a place in the market for both products. It would be nice to have the choice. I bet a 10:1 523 with as cast stage 2 heads, well thought out cam profile that would still run power brakes, could easilty come close to,if not over 650hp, and over 650 ft lbs of torque and not need to see over 6000 rpm. This would be a killer driver combo, be crazy fun on street, more than hold it's own on the track, provide plenty of room to brag at shows, be easy and affordable to maintain. If these could be done and save 1500 in port work, 1500 on a custom crank, 2000ish in girdle/machine work/custom oil pan, it would look alot more attractive and in the budget for alot more ppl. Yes you wouldnt be getting every hp you could, but there would be room to grow if later wanted too.
But on the other hand with some big CID the rpm requirement goes down and then the block lifespan goes up proportionally. Then you dont need 7k rpm to run 9s. Ha it's the chicken and the egg man,..I wish I could have kept my Tomahawk stuff and in all reality I'm pretty confident I'll never mess with stuff like that again on my salary,..so my thoughts have shifted back to the basics I guess. On street tires or drag radials you would never load it hard enough or long enough to push the webs around imo,..and with most tracks running 1/8mile the abuse endured on the track vs 1/4 is much less. But I agree a 482 will do what most any street bound guy could want but this is Amurica and bigger is better ha We think alike Ben,..hell I just wanna put "525cid" on my license plate ha
Might consider a half fill. It gets hot here and cooling is a big deal. The aluminum heads will help with the higher cr. Then there is that ac condenser out front heating the air up before it gets to the radiator. This is Texas and we need ac. Definitely will get .038 over pistons as the block I have is already .030 over. Probably will start off with the tall port 430 heads to get it running and driving with the 464. Rods are also a big decision. I think that will depend on the economy and how the work goes. Really leaning toward a roller cam. Nothing to wild, power brakes ya know. I just have a hard time cutting down a flexible stock crank and making it more flexible to stroke it. Just seems to go against keeping it and the webs in the block.
I agree, we just built 3 482's at 631hp and 605 lb-ft at 6000rpm and are totally streetable. Have been building good reliable,albiet not max hp, mills for a long time and reasonably priced. Sometimes we all get caught up in "I have huge hp, and I'm faster than you" mentality. But then we are always working on the car, maintenance or breakage. I've said for years,I'd rather go slow and go rounds than go fast and be on the trailer. Both Scat and Thumper go 9's all out, tickling 725hp at 6500rpm with 482 and 494, but are throttle stopped back to wherever we need to be. Been very successful with this philosophy.
Rich, we aren't in Texas so I don't know your heat challenges, but the last 3 482's we did have a short fill and are comfortable on the street without overheating. gary
The crank is actually very strong due to its huge size, it's the block the moves around. The journal diameter is also part of th ed oiling requirements......the surface speed of our cranks is much higher at any given rpm than say a bbc. The crank was actually made big to help provide the stability orginally, allowing them to thin the block to save weight, We must remember these motors were ment to move the family land yacht to the store at under 3000 rpm, they were never built from the ground up to do rpms. The modern rod choices are a great deal seeing the cost and number or core it takes to make a good set, well worth the money, if pulling the trigger on modern rods, the 482 cost is just the crank grind.....couple under bucks, it says for itself almost by being able to use the Chevy rods as they are often couple hundred cheaper than buick rods
Something is making that block move. And if it is the crank then a stiffer forged version is still cheaper than a fancy block. The less flex of the crank, the less the block moves. And if I put 7-9psi into it I need the less flex version. I'm not spinning it past 6k in my imagination so low end is where I'm at. Get it hooked and launched works for my turbo regal and I think will do the same in the GS. As far as hot, that is a given here. Wife wants no part of a cruise, or a show where the car doesn't have ac. So a big aluminum radiator will be in there to go behind the ac condenser. My next crazy thoughts have gone to the heads and a big intake valve and the smaller exhaust valve and the cam to make it flow. Big dreams. I'll be watching to see if this Chinese forged crank thing might happen and try to be ready to put in the down if it does. That would be a nifty piece.
7-9 psi changes the requirements of a motor drastically. That motor would need bottom end support no matter who's crank you put in it. Thats an apple to oranges motor build there
