I have a 72 Riviera with the original 455 with 123K original miles on it runs and drives fine no known problems except an exhaust leak from the exhaust headers . I also have a 71 Riviera Grand Sport it runs but not sure how well the car is complete but too far gone to restore so it's just parts at this point. It runs but not sure how well only drove it on and off the trailer when i got it last year. Im looking to step up the power of my 72 it's a big car and could use some "Get up and go". My goals are to get in the 550 HP range and run of street gas still. This is a near daily driver when there is not snow on the ground so keeping it reliable and driving well is a priority. I'm new to rebuilding engines but have professional help from my brother who does concourse restorations. We are pulling the engine to fix the headers and do a nice clean and paint on the engine bay and i have about $2000 - $2500 for parts right now and want to move in the direction of the power im looking for. Iv been trying to do research on the best way to go but i feel like the more research i do the more confused i get as to what i need and right direction to go. I know i need to do headers this time around probably as there is a high likely hood one of the headers is cracked causing the exhaust leak. Im really just looking for suggestions as to the right place to start on that budget. Thank you!
If you want that kind of power, you need great head flow. You NEED aluminum heads. Get a set of the TA Stage 1 SE heads, and get the entry level porting. Run 10.5 compression , and a cam with 230* of intake duration, and you'll be there. The heads will eat up all your budget, but your 550 HP goal is not attainable without the head flow. If you could port your iron heads yourself, that would help. I would save up some more coin and build a 470, or 482. Read here, http://trishieldperformance.com/470--what-and-why-.html There are now drop in Molnar rods that are very affordable.
Yeah i know i will need new heads and those are the ones i was looking at but i just can't afford them this round because headers are not an option need to fix the exhaust leak. So i was trying to figure out what i CAN get with the remainder of my budget this time to at least start moving in the right direction. I was looking at cams at TA but got completely lost in all the different grind options. I also knew i would want to get back in 10:1 or better range on the compression like they had in 70' but a friend told me they would mess with pistons to start (not sure if that's really good advice since they don't really know the buick big blocks at all just what they said) If you couldn't tell i'm pretty lost in all this so any guidance on where to start would be appreciated.
You will not get to 550 HP with the stock heads. The higher the RPM an engine can spin, the higher the horse power it can make, PROVIDING it can breathe at that higher RPM. The higher the RPM, the less time air has to move in and out of the cylinder. A high performance cam works by holding both valves open longer, so that the engine can breathe at higher RPM, and make more power. There is a downside to that though. Holding both valves open longer increases overlap. Overlap is when both valves are open at the same time. This decreases engine idle vacuum, and makes the idle rougher. It also decreases low end performance for the bigger gain up top. The bigger the cam, and the smaller the engine, the more pronounced this is. The biggest mistake made is when too big a cam is selected. With a big cam, you need to get the engine up into it's power range quicker. That entails a looser torque converter, and higher numerical gears out back. That lowers gas mileage. That is why heads are so important. Heads that flow big numbers can make more HP with a smaller cam. The smaller cam behaves better on the street. That is why my advice is to delay your gratification until you have enough money to do this right. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it is the right thing for you to do. If you absolutely want to do something, I would spend the money on a short block. Build a stroker motor short block like the 470 or 482. Use your stock heads until you can afford to buy a set of aluminum heads. Then bolt them on and gain at least 60 -100 HP. Select a cam with no more than 230* of intake duration, and it will be reasonable for street performance.
If you can't wait and think you have to press on, then there are a couple of lessor expensive options you can do. 1) Skip block machine shop machining because that alone done properly would take around $1,000 out of the budget. Instead buy a ball hone to deglaze cylinders for new rings. Plenty of youtube videos out there to see how to do that. 2) Clean and re-use the pistons you already have with factory bolts because if you try to have new bolts installed and have the rods reconditioned you'll probably need at least 1 more rod to get one good set and up to 4 more may be needed. 3) Do all of the oil mods needed for the 455 block and get the TA performance back grooved cam bearings for even better oiling. 4) Have crank polished if it is still in good shape if not have it re-ground. 5) Clean the block and when you think its clean enough to eat off and out of, clean it again. Make sure all the stone grit is cleaned out of every cylinder. I use paper towel with brake clean wiping the cylinders out until the towel doesn't change color after wiping. Then make sure all the paper towel lint is removed then oil cylinder for pistons. 6) Re-assemble short block with new rings and bearings following the proper torque specs, you can skip rebalancing because you're not changing any parts. If your balancer is worn out, send it out to be rebuilt. Following the above will save you enough $$ to upgrade to a roller cam, roller lifters and roller rockers with your budget so you can without thinking about it buy the TA heads when you get aluminum because you'll already have the rockers. Do your own head porting with the valves size that is already in the heads. Paying for larger valves to be installed in your iron heads would be a HUGE dent in your budget, might as well just get aluminum at that point. Have shop do valve job and install new springs for your cam choice. Choose a cam that you want to grow into when you upgrade the engine with good pistons, rods and heads so you don't have to buy the cam again when the engine is upgraded. Have the heads milled to get you the compression ratio you want, but no more than 10:1 with iron heads if you still want to run pump gas. With home ported heads, 10:1 static compression with around 7.8:1 dynamic compression you shouldn't have any problem making around 480 HP with close to 550 ft lbs of torque! Maybe even more HP if you do a good job porting your heads or less if you don't. Just try to keep the RPMs in check, probably no more than 5,500 to make it live another day, until you upgrade. So with doing your build this way, you spend the budget $$ on the better roller cam, roller lifters and roller rockers right out of the gate with maybe a few bucks to spare? It would be the better idea to upgrade the bottom end the next time around before the heads, and then the heads or bottom end and heads at the same time. This should yield the most power while staying within your budget.GL Derek
Hi Larry thank you for the detailed explanation. I really appreciate it. I have a few more questions just to make sure i'm fully understanding what your saying. What I had been thinking based on advice i received from a friend ( i'm asking here because i know you all know better ) was to start with the cam i wanted and headers and intake, then with remaining money new waterpump and timing assembly. Then next winter do the heads when i have more money. The problem with this if i understand you correctly is that based on the cam grind i will need to create the power i want the engine will be starving for air and not perform correctly. One option i do have also is i have the 70GS that as far as i know has good headers so i could just swap. If all i got was the heads right now i might be able to swing it but is there anything else i would have change to go with the new heads For the heads you mentioned the stage 1 heads by reading the TA site i had thought it seemed like i would want the stage 2. But you think the stage 1 is better for my application? I know with the stage 2 new headers is required at the same time. You mentioned making the short block for a 470 i did read about this on the tri shield performance website, this seems like a good option however this seems like it would be way out of my budget but i couldn't really find prices on any of the components to do this on their website, most of the related links seemed broken. Would this actually be in my budget? 300sbb_overkill thank you for the suggestions. a couple questions for you. You mention getting the rollers and stuff for the heads. I was trying to figure out what exactly is included in the fully assembled heads vs bare casting but i could not find this on the TA website. Just trying to figure out how much if any it saves buying fully assembled. Thank you for your patience this is my first build and trying to justify even this much money all at once to the wife is hard but i'm sure you all understand .
Or maybe i can finally find someone to buy the hideous 22 x 11 chrome wheels that came on my 72' couldnt even fully turn the wheel or hit a bump with out them rubbing. Guess there is just no accounting for taste with some :-/ it would go a long way towards new heads if i could find some one on craigslist to relieve me of these wheels! IMG_0617 by arschmitz posted Apr 29, 2017 at 11:07 PM IMG_0615 by arschmitz posted Apr 29, 2017 at 11:07 PM
To get anywhere near the number you think you want, you're going to need heads, and you're going to need compression. There's just no way around those 2 ingredients, and to get them both, from where you are now, is going to be $5,000-$10,000. The 470 isn't great because it has slightly higher displacement than the 455- that's kind of a side effect. The 470 is JW's go-to because it's a high compression, zero-decked motor that (basically) retains the stock deck height. The difference between the TA Stage 1 and Stage 2 heads is mainly the exhaust runner design. The Stage 1 design is like the factory head, and you can use the factory exhaust manifold, as well as most garden variety long tube headers. The Stage 2 design has a much shorter exhaust runner. It's a better head, but it requires you to use Stage 2 headers, which builds more cost into the build. The last thing you want is to have your daily driver Riv off the road for years and years while you try to get up to speed on all this. That is what kills projects. I think your absolute best option would be to fix your exhaust leak, paint the motor, and put it back in the car. Enjoy it. Pull the motor out of your junker Riv, and start building up that one.
What I would do personally is do the minimum to your current engine just to keep it reliable and fix the exhaust leak. I would not even pull the engine to fix the exhaust leak. I would pull the one head if you break off exhaust manifold bolts. Soak the exhaust manifold bolts in PB blaster and then wait a few days to let it soak in. Give each bolt a firm bang with a hammer then try to carefully remove the bolts. More PB blaster and work them in and out if they are being stubborn. Once you get the manifold off use a Remflex gasket as it will seal up even warped manifolds as it has a very good rebound quality with graphite. I have used these on manifolds and headers that were causing me leaking issues and never had a leak since using them and am talking 5 plus vehicles over 5 plus years. Then pull the engine from that car you said us too far gone to save, and slowly rebuild it properly with all the right machine work as you can afford it. Think of an engine like a house, the block is the foundation. My approach is to take the engine to a machine shop, have them clean and mesure it out and let you know the amount on machine work needed to meet your goals. I let them disassemble the engine too because there are many clues they may find like worn bearings etc that may get missed if you just bring in a block And crank. Think of the tear down as a autopsy. Of course you will be tempted to tear it down yourself but I'm telling you most good machine shops would prefer to take it apart themselves and diagnose good and bad aspects of the engine. Taking shortcuts on the machine work is not a good investment. Even if you can't go with alum heads and super high HP right away you are still better off to invest in a properly blueprinted engine with all the clearances in spec. To start with make sure the engine is a good candidate for a rebuild and if it is then start by having the deck surface milled square to the crank centreline. Most blocks have some of the pistons sitting further down in the hole due to the block deck not being square. The mains of the block should be align honed or bored if needed after ARP studs are added in place of the old bolts. The studs give better clamping force but this may change the bearing clearances unless it's align honed or bored. I would not stroke it, 455 cubes plus a 30 thou overbore is plenty for your goals. Just use head flow to gain the Hp. I only bore as much as needed, no more. I keep my cylinder walls as thick as possible. If the bores clean up at 20 thou overbore and you can get pistons in that bore size then go for it. Not a huge performance gain by boring a little bit larger, and you loose valuable strength. For the rods it's really best to get the new $600 replacement rods TA sells, it's great insurance for high RPM use. Plus how much money does it take to re-size stick rods and add ARP bolts? Likely not a big difference in cost. Same goes for the pistons, spend a bit of money here to add longevity and performance. You can order custom pistons to give you any compression ratio you want and I suggest you run the pistons at zero deck so that with a 40 thou head gasket you have a 40 thou quench area which reduces detonation tendencies and increases combustion efficiency. Before ordering a custom piston ensure the block will clean up with your desired overbore, and ensure the shop measures the deck height of the squared off block decks so you can get your pistons ordered so they sit flush or zero deck. Ensure the rotating assembly is balanced. To pick your desired compression ratio look at the fuel octane options you have. Contrary to popular opinion you can still make some great power with a little lower compression ratio if all the details are well planned out. Being able to run an engine on mid grade octane instead of the premium grade would save you $ with a daily driver. Once you know your desired octane requirements you can match up the static or physical compression ratio with a camshaft that you pick and this will allow you to dial in your dynamic compression ratio which is just the way that the camshaft opens and closed the valves in the heads bleading off some compression or cylinder pressure. Sorry for the long post....
First, I would forget about a cam. Your cam choice will depend on your compression, and head flow, and the rest of your combination. I like Sean's suggestion that you do the bare minimum to get your engine running and reliable. Then build the other engine to your goals. Yes, the Stage2 heads are better, but the headers are more expensive. If you had the 455 Stage1 headers, they would transfer to a new motor, but the Stage 2 would not. Completely different headers. The tri shield website is just incomplete. I know Jim has been meaning to complete it, but I guess he hasn't gotten around to it yet. Jim Weise is the owner of this board. You can either call him or private message him for current prices on a 470. This will give you some idea, http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/level-1a-r-and-2a-r-specs-and-pricing.221428/ I know that is a lot of money. See what Jim gets for just the short block.
Ya, I really need to finish up that new website.. I had to change computers here in the office a while back, and the software I did that site on is still on the old one.. have to get down the basement and retrieve the old tower and get the working copies and software so I can finish the site. A 470 shortblock is $5495 assembled, from your crank and block cores. The best value, considering the parts used and operations "not skipped", in BBB performance today. I was shocked at how correcting the location of the transmission dowel pins alters how it goes together.. On the dyno, we use to have to wiggle and jiggle the motor onto the dyno's input shaft, now it just falls together. We use a BHJ fixture to re-position those dowels precisely in relation to the crank center-line, and use custom dowel pins, that are oversize on the block side, to make the changes required. My 470 is the culmination of 30 years of striving to build the best, most cost efficient 455 Buick short block on the market. From the depth of the valve reliefs on the pistons, to the custom Molnar Technologies Buick 470 rods, to the oil passage modifications, every detail is thought thru to insure that if your buying a complete engine, shortblock, or parts, your experience will be the best it can be. Just this week, I called Tom Molnar and requested that he reduce the rod big end width by .002 to open up the side clearance from the stock spec to a more performance oriented one. Even specified which side of the rod to take the .002 off. This will save future users of this rod the $75-100 cost of having the rods professionally machined on a magnetic surface grinder, to thin them out, to open up the rod side play. While the stock .010/.012 rod clearance will work, just an additional .004 side clearance really changes both oil flow volume and how "tight" the motor is. Things like this are all about the attention to detail, and getting that level of detail without accumulating additional costs. My advice to you is to fix your exhaust leak, and keep saving..
I agree with Larry and others who have said you need the TA Stage 1 SE heads. Post a wanted add on this board and be diligent. Follow every lead and be patient. Watch for threads where guys have upgraded to stage 2,3, or 4 heads and then inquire about their old heads. I think you can find a set in the $2,000-$2500 range complete and possibly with mild porting already done. Good luck. Cliff
This has been a good post to read. I think many of us are in the same boat as arschmitz. These Buicks aren't Chevy or Ford motors at half the price so rebuilding can be a major economic challenge. I've heard over and over by many that JW's 470 is a great build to use. (By the way JW, that 9.5"torque converter is fun. Livens up the engine a bit compared to the stock converter and cruises good. I'm real frustrated that I can't get to Rock Falls yet and see how much improvement). What's the difference between the 470 and 482 other than the obvious mathematical 12?
My two cents is that if you are buying pistons and rods to do the .030 over 464, why wouldn't you go to the stroked 470" as it is just an offset grind on the crank. Most likely the crank will need some work anyway and i don't think a few extra dollars to get some more cubes and a more favorable rod angle is a bad way to spend money. Thanks to all who put their knowledge out there. It is an awesome thing to have such experience and knowledge shared in the community. The question was posed, "What's the difference between the 470 and 482 other than the obvious mathematical 12?" The 470 has the crank offset ground where the big end of the rod is 2.20(common BBC 6.8" rod). The 482 has the crank offset ground to a 2.0" size which I think is a common sbc rod size.
Great info here! I didn't see this addressed though, maybe I missed it. You have a Riviera with an exhaust leak, and you say it's at the headers, and replacing them will eat a chunk out of your engine fund.. Either you have manifolds (which should he very cheap to buy, a PITA to change) or you have some expensive headers (T/A shorties?). Clarify what you're working with; it may be a much cheaper problem than you think. Also, how'd you come up with this '550 hp' goal? A fresh, Buick 455 in close to stock trim, well tuned, well carbed, etc will make a huge amount of barge pushing torque that's very satisfying to drive. Maybe you should do the needed and the low hanging fruit on this one, then see how much more you want. Patrick
One little correction and addition; The 482 variation uses the 2.100" sbc rod journal size while the 494 variation uses the 2.00" rod journal size. Derek
Slap an LS6 in it and call it a day LOL!!! You'll never have to work on it again! When you can afford it, put twin turbos or a supercharger on it and you can be over 550 HP in no time!!! Come on and be like everyone else now days!!! (I'm kinda of kidding with this post...kinda kidding LOL). Oh and by the way, this is such a good thread going here! I'm really enjoying reading through it.
All great advice here. I agree with get 1 motor running and enjoy it while you build the other motor. I was debating about a similar build as you when I first got on the 'more hp' train. My 2 cents is if this will be a street driven car well prepped stock rods will suffice. I have a complete prepped set I bought and will sell them at a good price. TA stage 1 heads will be your best bang for your buck and will be easy to get more power out of if you choose to later. Decent forged pistons, and a good cam like a TA 413 will work well imo also. The TA SP1 intake or edelbrock performer with headers and that should get you close to your goal. Don't forget about the oil mods if you want it to last! (including the booster plate, oil pressure regulator, etc) With the stock bottom end and good prepped stock rods be careful not to rev over 6000 rpm or go over your hp goal or you risk bad things happening to your new motor. If this is all your going to want out of your motor and it being street driven I think this set up will serve you well. Jims 470 comes with alot of good reviews and worth looking into if you plan on getting more power later. Good luck!
Replace the 2.93 open rear end with the 3.42 posi out of the GS. A friend recently asked how much I've spent on my engine, and I'm glad I don't know because it's more than I should have; really wish I would have had the foresight to get at least a short block from Jim Weise/Tri-Shield Performance. I put these rims on my '72 because the front and rear end have "v"s so the wheels may as well too https://www.discounttire.com/buy-wheels/mb-wheels-old-school/p/23194
