350 buick build on Horsepower TV

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by vande, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Fox's Den

    Fox's Den 355Xrs

    Sorry, just tired of hearing about it. He will never go to the track anyways. It will be an 800 HP street motor woopee. The smack talk is not for this guy it is for Sean. But you knew that right. Don't need to go to the track when there is a desktop dyno available.

    Richard.
     
  2. P-R-N-D-3-2-1

    P-R-N-D-3-2-1 Well-Known Member



    Though I wonder if a little back pressure is needed, since its pretty much free breathing???
     
  3. garybuick

    garybuick Time Traveler

    Even if the LeSabre weights 1000 lbs more than the Skylark, according to you guys that is only 10 10ths or 1 second slower. That is hard to believe. So instead of an 11 second car it would be a 12 second car. So there is no need to shed 600lbs. 600lbs is only worth 6 tenths of a second. I would be happy with high 13's. According to you guys formula , I could build a 350 like steves and if he is running 11.5, I could actually add 2300lbs and still go only 2 seconds slower.

    Im not convinced yet of anything. Remember Im not intterested in quarter mile drag racing anyway. I like 0-70 acceleration runs, or 5 second sprints. and just cruising around with some economy so I can actually drive and enjoy the car.
     
  4. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Nope. The cylinder wants some scavenging.
    A good torque killer is too short of length or too large a diameter collector. The benefit isn't just flow.
    If headers are used the diameter and lengths of the pipes are "tuned" to scavenge the cylinder in an rpm range according to the size of the cylinder.
    The branches of an exhaust manifold do the same, but the math puts any scavenging effect at a higher rpm than usually useable in a streetable situation.

    As far as going fast with a big heavy car (and small cubes) there's more to it than flow, cams, and hp.
    The weight of the car completely changes the octane tolerance of the engine. There's more influence from the car end of the equation than the engine end (at a certain point).
    You can get away from load induced detonation with a really light car, deep gears, and high stall converter, where as the opposite will certainly be an obstacle in any borderline situation.
    Part of the equation is to have the torque (and gears) to move the weight quickly enough to climb the revs quickly...near instantaneously is better.

    Very difficult to combine the words "budget" and serious pump gas performance in the same sentence without some fairly extensive knowledge or access to machinery.
    Something else to keep in mind is that some respect needs to be given to those doing well at the track.
    There's plenty of actual 500 hp (or much more) equipped cars that embarrass themselves at the track, either from inexperience or lack of ability to "set up the car".
    If new, your not going to duplicate a shopping list of parts and turn it into fast track times. Not going to happen, for a while anyways.

    Now that I've contributed to the crushing of dreams...JK, gotta have goals and aspirations. It's smart to heed some of the known obstacles to getting there.
    When you have a more solid plan along with a budget with the 73 Lesabre, put it to the board.
     
  5. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    X2

    There's plenty of people who talk the talk but only a few walk the walk. Lots of times the talk doesn't quite add up to what they thought they had. Then there are the people who walk the walk. Getting a N/A 350 powered car into the 11's is actually "running the run". You're not walking anymore! You can tell by the very small number of people who have done it. You can use one hand to count them. You can pretty much forget about the NHRA "Stock" class cars that do it too. They have almost nothing to do with being a street car. Add a big boat to the scene and you are adding more of a handicap. I've confirmed that 100 lbs is right at .09 sec and .9 mph on my car (I left my street tires in the trunk for some runs) and that's racing at 4250 lbs(w/o tires in trunk) running a strong street BBB in the high 11's. I'm sure Gary has checked out the Big Boat time slip thread. You'll notice they are almost all running BBB's from mild to very strong. I think the only 350 car is in the 15's. Being realistic and not being a dreamer a mild 350 build at that weight and depending on gearing could go low 15's and maybe dip into the 14's on a good day. If you get serious mid 14's and if you start to get hard core maybe a high 13. If you want serious stop light to stop light acceleration get some steep gears in there, at least 4.10's. There's almost nothing you can do to a 350 engine that will make it pull off the line strong in such a heavy car without some good gears. Add an O.D. trans if you do a lot of highway cruising. The gears will do just about the most you can do for a fast launch. A mild engine is all you need to compliment the gears. Get the compression up, good exhaust, headers, and add a MILD cam. Headwork if you can. A mild converter would help if you put a cam in. That would make the car a ball to drive on the street and come out strong.

    Of course all this is talk just like most of this thread.
     
  6. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    Unless there is another Steve his car runs 13s. But still very street able. . it seems you are looking for the miracle answer to cheap/easy fast. 3 possible answers.
    1 bigger engine.
    2 nitrous
    3 turbos.
     
  7. P-R-N-D-3-2-1

    P-R-N-D-3-2-1 Well-Known Member


    sounds typical, big engine, 2 stage nitro but 3 turbo's?

    That sound interesting, id assume the normal twin turbo set up, with a 3rd that runs off the waste of the two to sort of balance the system.
     
  8. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA


    He was actually numbering the things that could be done, not suggesting to run 3 turbos. :Do No:


    Derek
     
  9. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    No sarcasm font button on the keyboard maybe.
    I thought that was pretty funny.
     
  10. killrbuick66455

    killrbuick66455 Well-Known Member


    I don't think he meant 3 turbos per say but as a 3rd option
     
  11. Buick#455

    Buick#455 Well-Known Member

    Hey Richard,
    Tell us how you really FEEL.......
     
  12. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    The SBB community is very small and we need to work together and encourage people to build better Buicks. All the bashing needs to stop, lets work together.

    We all know the 350 has a lot of un-tapped potential, and with the new parts coming out this is an exciting time! So lets celebrate, and break new ground, together!

    And I never said that I was not going to drag race my car, I will when I want to but I am in no rush... My car already ran low 10s, so why would I rush back out when the stock rods in the engine are at thier limits already? When the good engine is in, with the alum heads I can see what it can really do. There is no reason I cannot have a mild 350 with a smooth idle, and make big power with the turbos... I can have my cake and eat it too!
     
  13. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: We ALL have something to offer this community. One person may know more than another in a different area, but we all contribute knowledge and experience and ideas. As long as we can tone down on the chest pounding and knuckle dragging, things will work out as they usually do.

    Going back to my last post, if you can find a competent cam engineer (as I said before), then go custom if you want; otherwise, the risk isn't the extra money so much as it is in harming your engine's performance.

    Andy wasn't talking about HIS engine, he was commenting about the test engine that this thread is about, and in response to my previous post. In Andy's case, a custom cam is highly advised.

    People need to read all my words instead of cherry picking words out of context and trying to formulate an 'argument' this way. It doesn't usually work out well when this happens.

    Off the shelf cams are your safest way to go if you don't know what you're doing. I thought I made that clear in the last post, but I guess I have to reiterate.

    You can also make an off the shelf cam work if you're already going to be machining the block and heads so you can better match your compression. Sometimes, off the shelf cams are surprisingly good grinds, particularly if they're from Crower or TA Performance...

    So trust the experts, and when in doubt, ask. Don't let pride keep you from learning and improving your Buick.

    Gary
     
  14. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    Hey Gary. I have recently purchased parts thru Scott Brown at competition components/racetec. And have seen plenty of his custom cams work well. He seems to know what he talks about. That's why I mentioned that his custom cams are only 19 bucks more that a TA cam and can take better advantage of technology and your exact build. And his cam is in a powerful 370 that everyone knows about. Seem to be worth it and he has stood with his products . I had a issues with his gaskets and he took care of it. His reputation is good so far.
     
  15. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    Sounds good to me! :TU:

    My previous post about custom cams vs off the shelf cams was more a generic advice post with some references to the test engine. Nothing was inferred about your particular combination, although I can understand why you and Derek would go off the deep end with it, considering you're both involved with the custom stroker engine that has special needs...

    Milk it for all it's worth when every ft. lb. and hp matters, of course.

    Not all camshaft grinds are created equal. Many off the shelf grinds are for gearhead enthusiasts who want an extra edge over stock components in a car that won't be their daily driver, many of whom are looking for some more feel by the seat of their pants and a nice lopey idle.

    Others are more interested in competition at the track, bragging rights, dyno queens, street sleepers, etc.

    Underneath the surface, however, resides all the detailed mathematics and physics involved in making it work, either when matching the cam to other specific engine components and head flow numbers, or when creating a 'general purpose' performance camshaft that will work well in 'most' reasonable applications.

    When an off the shelf cam is 'proven' to be a performer, it usually refers to the reviews and reputation and studies that have gone into creating and applying it to real world scenarios. Desktop dynos are useful tools to get a general idea of how a particular combination will work without spending a fortune and countless hours building and testing in real world applications, though this is truly the best way to get more accurate numbers.

    Some people don't want an engine that maximizes power output. Why would anyone want this you may ask?...Because other things come into play when using an engine for more than simply drag racing or Saturday night burnouts, when economy and longevity matter more.

    Just like the question of 'which gear ratio to use' or 'which cam is best for my engine' it all boils down to what you want to use it for, the simplest answer for which is: 'it depends'.

    When people can't make up their minds or they want to have their cakes and eat them too, the best option is usually a good, 'proven' performing general purpose camshaft and other related components to make the entire package work well together.

    A 'best of all worlds' scenario, where a balance of all things are taken into consideration, not just raw power output. Advice for one person may be irrelevant to another.

    Try to think outside of the box, and realize there's more to all this than what your own personal combination requires (I say this to everyone, not just one or two people in particular). :beers2:


    Gary
     
  16. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA


    Hey Gary, with all due respect, I'm not understanding your logic here. Just because a cam is custom doesn't mean it is designed for all out just upper RPM power. If fact a custom cam can be designed for better fuel economy with more low end torque or for more upper RPM HP whatever the intended purpose the user wants the engine in the car to do.

    That extra $19 gets you a cam designed specifically for the users intended purpose. That means there would be less compromise with a custom cam vs. an off the shelf cam. Sure an off the shelf cam could get someone close to what they want but for $19 why not get closer with the newer available cam technology out there?

    A custom cam doesn't mean less durability unless someone wants an all out race grind with very steep ramp rates. If the cam is for a low compression engine the cam isn't going to be designed that way.

    Not sure if Scott Brown designed the cam for Antony's 8.5:1 370 CID 420 N/A HP 650 HP with boost engine, but Finishline does use them a lot for custom camshafts so I would imagine they might of made this one as well? Is that an all out race cam, I would say no. Why, because when you design a cam for boost it won't have a lot of overlap. Overlap in a boosted engine bleeds boost which defeats the purpose of boosting, plus if it had a lot of overlap it would want to spin way to fast for a boosted app. Not sure on the specs of this cam in particular but designing a cam for boost usually the grind is mild by comparison to a high compression N/A high HP cam.


    Just saying why compromise and buy an off the shelf cam and then have to spend a bunch more $$ having to match a gear and a stall converter to make it run right? When for the small fee of $19 you can buy a cam that will perform better than stock, with what the car is equipped with already. A VERY budget friendly way to get more out of any engine that's not just for race engines.




    Derek
     
  17. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    This^^^
     
  18. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    Agree with Derek, there are no off the shelf 350 cams designed for boost because so few people build a boosted 350. If I were building a boosted 350 it would have very different specs.
    That said I am a fan of using name brand cams. I've seen multiple cam failures from nitch cam grinders.
     
  19. P-R-N-D-3-2-1

    P-R-N-D-3-2-1 Well-Known Member

    was mentioned on facebook, with the pace of technology, electronic controlled valving should be a do-able goal [ aka no cam ]
     
  20. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA


    People don't want to spend $19 on a custom cam grind let alone the thousands of $$ for solenoid actuated valves.:Do No:



    Derek
     

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