Everyone- It's been a busy summer! Here are some photos of how the build is comming... 15 ERD 1-5 In the assembly room. Note the hardblock up to the freeze plugs. 6-9 Forged Pistons, Toms Roller Rockers, Beehive springs, cam, etc. 10-14 Headwork- porting, polishing, and 11/32 valves... 16-18 Eelco 2X4 intake on block 19 TA high volume oil pump & timing set Reciprocating assembly is ballanced Heads are done. (could spend a fortune in more porting and polishing!) Block is done. Dual Barry Grants Road Demon Jrs. are on the way... Gonna do it cause no one else has! Gary knows how to make 'em run!
faaantastic! that's the way to go for! this should the next stage after i have received and installed the TA headers. hmmmm ... have to think of a way to "redirect" money from our family purse to improving my nailhead:Brow: .
Here's some more photo's from just last week. Obviously the pushrods are not installed in these photos, but I wanted to show the rocker tip relationship to the valve stem centerline geometry. Tom- I would like you to comment what you know about this placement. Am I not correct the roller should pass equally through the centerline as it travels through the open/close cycle, otherwise you would sideload the valve stem? The photos also show (rather nicely) the extent of porting that was done to the intakes.:TU: Gary wants to know if anyone else is interested in the 11/32 valve set-up as I have in the photos. His is considering putting valve "kits" together to sell as you see here- Springs, keepers, guides, and Special order Manley valves. I have to admit everything there turned out really sweet! Valve spring pressures turned out right on the money, no coil bind, and with the Telesco roller tip rockers, this is a 1st class set-up! I do however, believe it does require "cutting the pockets" for the springs. BTW- the two blown belly button chevy motors in the background are going into 69 Corvettes. I am SORELY dissapointed that I will not be able to run the Barry Grant carbs as I wanted. They simply will not fit- Not even close. I will now be going the Eddlebrock route. Here is my cam card info: Comp Cams Part # 91-000-5. Grind#: B364 5201/5203 H 112+2 Gross Valve lift: Intake .485, Exhaust.496 Duration @.006 Tappet Lift: 275 intake 280 exhaust Valve Timing Open Closed @.050 INT 2 BTDC 42 ABDC EXH 49 BBDC 1 ATDC These Specs are for Cam installed @110.0 Intake centerline Intake Exhaust Duration @.050 224 231 Lobe Lift .3130 .3200 Lobe Seperation 112.0 We havent got the distributor back from getting recurved, but is due back any day. Will be using an MSD 6AL. I have a kanundrum. I am sitting on the fence whether to use headders or the original manifolds. Yeah, headders look cool and are a usual bragging point, but I am not conviced there are any performance gains with headers on a Nailhead. I am interested in feedback who has done modifications to stock manifolds for perfomance gains. I have heard of others "45" the openings of the manifold inlets at the bottom to help direct the flow downward better as the exaust naturally comes out of the head, and that this is a better flow improvement than bolting on headders. For the Dyno it would be better to have headders that can be drilled and tapped to install the O2 sensors for each port. Has anybody done this with manifolds? The collector passage in a manifold is pretty close to the inlet where the O2 sensor should be placed. Supposedly we are getting close to the the Dyno run. Gary has another 426 Hemi ahead of me on the dyno reserved, and is saying that I'm scheduled next after that. We'll see. He said this would be within a month but then again he has had my motor since last October. I know a lot of people have been waiting for this dyno data. 63Riv- If you can come up with anyone else who is willing to publish thier data, please let me know. As far as I know I will be the first to do so, and soley for the purpose of goodwill for other fellow Nailheadders. I am testing the Eelco 2x4 intake in comparison with an Eddlebrock B262. A side benifit will show another dyno result for Toms Rockers. Marty- Yes. It is Bitchen! It makes my sticker peck out! Also, do you have that Buick to Chevy trans adapter to borrow for the dyno? Wes- Gary said he hasn't got your message about a low compression build for running boost. You might want to check again. I cant say gary is quick, but I can vouch for is attention to detail, that things will be done right the first time. After i have financially recovered from my Rivi project, I want to run boost on my 401 in a mid 80's Regal- And I'm not talking Turbo boost either. I'm thinking a carcas of a body and frame with a 671 blower sticking out of the hood could run the 1/4 in numbers rarely seen out of a nail. Catch you all later. Erik
As far as published data, I had my nailhead dynoed back in 1999 but have limited data to share. I could go back to the guy that built it and ran it to see if he has all the data.
Erik, side loading of the valve stem would be a factor with the stock rockers because they are so short & stubby. This is what contributes to the excessive guide wear on a "Nail", pulling out the guide liners, etc, especially with higher lobe lift cams & stronger valve springs. With the "Roller Tips" there is no "Side Loading" because the roller "Rolls" over the top of the valve stem. You definitely don't want to go with larger O.D. diameter valve springs. As it is stock the springs protrude into the pushrod area. Go with larger diameter pushrods & the interference is magnified. What kind of flow numbers did Gary get out of the heads???? With the cam your using be sure you have enough V-P clearance for a .600" lift. I notice the cotter pins in the end of the shafts are up side down incomparasion to normal. Are the holes for "Rocker" oiling pointing down??? It would also be interesting to know if headers or manifolds do anything for performance other than looking "Cool". With or without "My" & stock rockers. What size Edelbrocks are you going to use??? Progressive or straight linkage set-up??? It's been done & posted about using a "600" for the Primary carb. for better throttle response & better fuel mileage & a 750 for the secondary. Just remember the 750 will more than likely need to be jetted down as it comes out of the box. Also out of the box the float levels are never correct that I've seen. Easy to do before they are bolted on. Tom T.
Non Progressive. I can't get it through my head why 2 (better spaced apart)carbs running in perfect synchronicity with good idle circuits wouldn't run better than a progressive set-up. You would't feed all cyllinders the same on one end of the block running on one carb most of the time untill you open it up. Its all about tuning for the correct "signal". The carb spacing and plenem and runner design of the Eelco should especially allow non-progressive set-up much better than other intakes. All carbs need tuning whether it is through float level adjustment, Jetting, Air bleeds, etc. Vaccumm "signal" at all aspects will be measured and tuned to on the Dyno. To expect a carb to come perfectly tuned "out of the box" is unrealistic unless you order it from the manufacturer "tuned" for a known application. That is the very reason I wanted to used Barry Grants, and why "others" have problems with them. I think Dual 500's will be too small for my application. 750's I think would be too big. I don't have flow bench data for the heads, but they were cc'd and machined within very tight tolerances. The porting was your good ol' fashion die grinder and elbow grease and common sence method. Tom- Thanks for the call today. Sorry I was so busy at work to not be able to talk longer. And thanks for pointing that out on the cotter pins. Simple and obvious, not critical, but as you have stated in the past a every small detail counts. Yes, I verified for myself that the oil holes were at the bottom. Gary has put "a few" motors together. He is well aware of the V/P clearance. He's all over that like a hobo on a happy meal! You can quit worrying about my motor Tom. This is the stuff motor building is all about, and why I chose to go to Gary to build my motor. I know you genuinly care, and have been burnt before, but this is not garage amateur bolting on your rockers and hoping for the best. Later Erik
Not to be rude but "I have had several reports back from customers with their own horsepower CLAIMS and all are very gratifying"? Then a 3 x 2 when a nice 4bbl in aluminum with a modern high rise design would outsell a "trip over" set-up 5:1 at least. Not all nailhead owners are out for simply good looks but some actually want some power to be competitive with their contemporaries like the venerable SS396. How long has the 2 x 4 been out, over a year, and no dyno pulls even from the manufacturer? If indeed several Edelbrock dual quads were cut up to get this intake correct then I would think the guys behind it would be bragging about the results ASAP! Gessler or our Tom T. would have been glad to test the intake and at least get flow numbers!?
This is a valid question; Erik's motor was always going to be used for the dyno testing and we had hoped it would be ready back in the spring but as you know; a motor like his takes time and research to assemble. I started on a basically stock engine that may be more comparable to the average buick owners set-up and will finish the motor this weekend. It still may likely be after the holidays before we can test it. I don't think Edelbrock ever did dyno testing on their manifold and it has been out 40 years. Of course; maybe I haven't seen it. The reason I did a 3x2 was it was similar to the 2x4 with a few plenum changes. Only recently have I noticed a peak in the 1x4 interest. I would like to build one but at the moment and to the dismay of many buick owners; the larger Chrysler Hemi market has me busy. Thanks for all the questions; I do follow as close as I can and find this board as a reliable source of constructive feedback.
Erik, i am definitely interested in the manley valves... also, what springs and retainers are you using?... part#'s? what do you think a valve, spring, retainer package run? have you measured the height difference between a stock 4bb or 2x4bb intake vs. the eelco? those measurements would be extremely helpful thanks again, wes
Wes, I measured a few manifolds.... I laid a straight edge across the carb mount surface, and measured the distance to the manifold/head surface. Height was measured over the front and rearmost manifold-to head bolts. Hope that makes sense! Stock 4bbl Front= 3" Rear= 4-1/8" Stock 2x4 Front= 2-7/16" Rear= 3-3/4" Edelbrock B262 Front= 3-11/16" Rear= 4-1/2" The EELCO manifold should be similar to the Edelbrock. Can someone confirm? The later AFB carbs have a shorter air horn that the original carbs. So the air cleaner will sit lower if you use later carbs. I don't know what the height is on the Edelbrock carbs. Carb Height: Stock 66 AFB 3.75" Comp series AFB 3.2" Erik, I'd also be interested in the Manley Valves. Keep us posted!:TU:
Erik, I don't follow you on that. Do you mean mill the exhaust flange at an angle? I have heard the nailhead likes to have the exhaust ports raised. And if the manifolds can be positioned a bit higher, maybe just an 1/8", that is supposed to help. I'm running a pair of comp series 500 AFB's on my blue car. It's a 425 with a big Isky cam and headers. I would say they are too small.....the car picked up 2 tenths with a '66 Q-jet! Cam specs here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=30928 I'll add your cam specs to the list. Great info you are posting, Thanks for sharing!:TU:
I caught on to the 45' thing, first brought up by Tom T. He, as well as others can elaborate better than I can, but I understand the general concept. The flow of exhaust as it comes out of a head curls around the top (roof) of the the head exhaust port and comes out at the bottom corner of the exhaust port exit. Tom can tell you EXACTLY where on each cyllinder. This points the flow of exhaust directly downward into the manifold. I confirmed this by looking in my old manifold ports and the old carbon deposits. Analyzing those deposits tells me the exact the same story! If you look where the manifold or a headder would bolt on, requires slight deviation or right angle to the natural flow. A headder would be worse because you cant get the first bend any closer to the head and forces the flow at a right angle or even Up! A manifold can go straight down quicker. Just inside from where the flange of the manifold bolts up to the head is the downward radius of the casting into the collector chamber. This is the area to grind back at a 45'. You can only take off as much as (less than) the manifold casting is thick. But someone with skill in welding cast steel could add material back to the bottom/back side of this radius to straighten out the flow even more. Walt- What you are saying would also make sense if you are talking about the HEAD ports. I suppose if someone was going to the trouble of raising the manifolds, it would also make sence to port the floor of the manifold to make the exit closer to the collector. I have a cross section somewhere... hmmm... I will get the measurement off the Eelco height and post when I can. I have asked Gary for the requested information on the valve parts, and will post. Erik
Gary has a booth at the PRI (Performance Racing Industry) trade show in Orlando FL. I got this this morning, so I am posting on behalf of Gary Stevenson at ERD: ok... Valves. Manley custom 11/32 undercut stem. 1.92 intake. 1.550 exh. 305.00 full set comp cam behive spring which gives plenty of clearance at underside of rocker and is a very good quality spring $179.04. Comp retainers $50.40. Hardened 7deg locks $5.00. With mild cutting of the seat you end up with 120 seat and 290 open. Total cost for package. 539.44 plus shipping to customer. thx gary...Do you have your water pump? Im heading to PRI in Orlando today. As soon as Im back I will complete engine and get er on the dyno. Hemi is up first then a blown SBC and then you and they take apx a week each. No. I am not selling these, myself. Furthermore I a not getting any commission or cut from the sale of these valve kits. I will be happy to forward emails or PM's but I would prefer you contact Gary for ordering. Oh, and one more thing Gary said to me that I noticed that is not in his write-up is the stem heights are right at factory length, so valve geometry is not affected. I also noticed he didn't include the guide... I will inquire when he gets back. Erik
Haven't seen a new post on this. Erik, Gary, ray: Can we get the part numbers of the behive springs? and or dimensions? Can the valves be ordered standard 1.50 and 1.875 (a little worried about flow restrictions due to the larger valves and the shape of our nail heads) and lastly, the valve guide liner info Thanks and Happy Holidays Roger
On behalf of Gary- The numbers are my secret. took me hrs to work it all out. Guides and seals are not included and valves are custom so any dimension is doeable. We use a bronze liner that we broach to set and then hone to final size. thx....Pan is on engine and it is primed. Just waiting on paint from you so we can finish. Thx gary Sorry Roger.
Any time frame of when this engine is hitting the dyno????? Been a loooooooooong wait. I'm getting antsy:bla:
