2x4 intake flow & performance data

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by ahhh65riv, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Does anyone have flow and/or performance data on any of the 2x4 intakes that they are willing to share?

    My motor is at the builders now and putting together a nice "package". This will include a 2x4 setup. I am currently working with Marty at Eelco (formerly nwspeedequipment) and ERD (Engine Research and Development- my local engine builder) to gather this long awaited independant data on the Eelco intake! I have been reading here that many of you have been holding out. I don't know exactly where this is going to lead, but likely will involve various brand intake and carb combinations. The testing and dyno time will not be cheap, but hopefully many will benefit from this independant unbiased data. :TU:

    I will keep everyone posted on the project as it progresses

    Erik Schmidt
     
  2. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    We are looking forward to that data Erik :TU:
    Will you have to have a hood scoop on the riv to fit the manifold, carbs and air cleaners? What carbs are you using?

    Ted
     
  3. DualQuad55

    DualQuad55 Well-Known Member

    Have you spoken with Tom Telesco? I know he has done a few dyno pulls with nailheads but I don't know how many intakes he has used. He helped a friend pull a stroker motor bck in the spring but I think they were using only single 4bbl intake setups.
     
  4. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Found it!

    Bill Stacy has flow data for stock and modified Q-jet and 2x4 iron manifolds on his 'Buickstreet' site:
    http://www.buickstreet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53

    I've heard the old Edelbrock is worth about 15hp over the stock 2x4. EELCO's new manifold is a clone of the 'brock.....so that's the best new intake out there. Sure wish T/A would make us some nice intakes!

    EELCO also has intake 'risers' ,or spacers, which I've heard actually hurt performance.
     
  5. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Excellent find Walt, Thanks for the link! This will be a good place to start.

    Yes, you are absolutely right. The Eelco is basically a Edelbrock b262 clone that has modifications to the porting Similar to what was done to the ones in this article. Marty has sacrificed (cut apart) many of the different types out there to create a pattern for his new casting. so this should, in theory prove successfull. He has some limited flow data already, but is after more specific bench data that is obtained from more modern "live data" dynos. Marty may weigh in here sooner or later on this thread to expand more on this... hopefully.

    Even more cool would be this same dyno/flow data for the various other intakes he has, but I'm not just advocating for his products. I am after unbiased independant testing. Maybe one of the Rod and Custom mags might like to pick this up and validate???

    As far as the hood scoop, NO WAY! although I have to admit blowers look really cool sticking out of Rivs! According to Marty, they (Eelco) will mill off 3/8'ths of an inch off the intake to fit under the hood if he knows you are putting it on a Riviera -especially a 63, which is the tightest fit.

    I sent Tom a message a few days ago with what we were up to. I haven't heard back from him yet. I had another motive I wanted to contact him as well, as I am considering his roller tip rockers in my buildup.

    As far as the carbs... I am battleing in my own thoughts still. I am leaning toward Road Demon Jrs. They are designed for dual 4barrels, and my engine builder is a Barry Grant dealer anyway. He is well know up here in the North West in the sprint and circle track world, and is very experienced with them. Then again I may end up with dual 500 CFM Edelbrocks for the sake of the test. What is the consensus? :Do No:

    You can check out the BG's here: http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/default.aspx?page=6
    Don't forget, there is a second page here for the application data.
     
  6. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    :shock: :puzzled: There is only a very, very close space between the bolt heads that hold down the valley pan and the stock 2 x 4 intake manifold.......how does he compensate for that? I'd think bringing the intake down 3/8" closer (even though it's an aftermarket) would have it almost resting right on the valley cover leaving no room at all for the bolt heads to fit inbetween. Those manifolds must be much higher than stock. :confused:
     
  7. telriv

    telriv Well-Known Member

    Erik, Tom here. Never got your message, I don't believe. Anyways, can't give any flow numbers other than what's been stated on Bill's site in the past. I do know that the Edelbrock B262 makes the most HP over anything else out there. The Aluminum Dual Quad Experimental is next in line. Stock cast iron is next. All others fall behind with the Offy being the absolute worst. The Q-Jet, on my friend Bob's engine didn't make any more HP over the stock single 4 cast iron intake off my '64 Riv. with an adapter plate & a double pumper Holley. In fact, the Q-Jet had a much smaller HP & Torque curve, 7-800RPM's as opposed to my Holley or any of the dual quads we used, average about 12-1500RPM's for a torque & HP curve. On 2 different engines so far the 1" spacers have lost 10HP & 15ft. lbs. of torque on both, so we didn't try the 2" or the 1/2" spacers that I made. Dyno time is expensive & if there are no results with 1" why go any further??? You could have a cam made to help the risers, but in my opinion the expense for a cam to just use the risers to be a benefit is a waste. Gain in one area & lose in another. Just my thoughts. The risers do have a purpose & that is to raise the manifold you may be using to have linkages clear & not for a performance improvement.
    I would imagine the 3/8ths. of an inch would be off the top of the manifold where the carbs. would sit.
     
  8. 4toe

    4toe Well-Known Member

    Marty here;

    I am looking forward to working with Gary and Eric on this project and we have already started the ball rolling. Performance data in a real time side by side comparison from a third party will be beneficial to us and the customers who own this manifold. We have had a lot of postive response and some claims from our customers; but none we have been able to witness or post data.

    I have never met these guys but from the conversations I have had with them; we will all have a good time with this project.
     
  9. Poppaluv

    Poppaluv I CALL WINNERS!!!

    Any new news????
     
  10. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    In process

    Well, here is where it goes...

    After I pulled the 401 engine out and was disassembled, the cause of the "knock" was found. The #5 rod bearing had spun. The crank had already been turned .030 under, soooo... off to look for a new crank! I filled Marty in and it so happened he had one in stock. While I was at it, I bought another 65 Riv -This one a GS- from Marty. I am now using my non GS for a full body restore to the GS! :Brow: (Dang! now I have to change my signature!) The GS body was in pretty bad rusty shape, and not much good other than the drive train, and a few of the GS goodies anyway. Anyway, now I am building up from the 425 block! But now I have the 401 drive train still to possibly put in a mid 80's Regal or GN body in the future??? Perhaps I should take a vote... Wouldn't a blown nailhead Regal be awsome!!! By the way... I got a chance to finally meet Marty and his family in person and got a personal tour of Eelco manufacturing when I picked up the GS stuff. what a treat and a nice family!

    I have decided to go with forged pistons (Diamond), got ARP bolts and main studs, rods and pistons should be being weighed and ballanced as we speak with the new (reworked) crank. There was a lot of casting flash clean-up on the heads as well as standard porting and polishing. Havent chosen a cam yet. We are still looking to reduce the valve stem diameter from the stock 3/8's to 11/32. The idea is reducing valve train weight. Gary believes the nailhead has a lot to gain (reduce) here, and not necissarily in changing the size of the valves as there simply is not room for much bigger valves. I wish I could justify a set of Toms roller tip rockers. This would be great for the Dyno testing as well. (see related thread)

    The 425 block is in geat shape. It has been hot dipped, and Mag Particled-No cracks. If I remember correctly, he said the bores are yet untouched, so a standard .030 overbore it will be and decked true and no more (was only .003 off) and just a polish on the crank bearing bores.

    Things have actually been pretty slow going, as the holidays have slowed things down a bit. As Spring gets closer, race engine builders get too busy for us hobby builders. Things should start moving again, now to be done before race season. These things can't be rushed anyway. I have been out of town also, but will have some photos to post. In the mean time check out Gary Stephenson at ERD via Racerscorner.com. I am sick from going over to the shop to see all the high end race boat blown alcohol stuff an sprint car motors he does over there! :eek2:

    Erik
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007
  11. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Update

    Oh... and one more thing! Not to let the cat out of the bag, but it looks like the Eelco 2x4 will be going head to head on the dyno against a Edelbrock B262!

    Originally it was going to be against an Offy, as that is the only other aftermarket intake available anyway, but I want to know how MUCH better is it than the currently best known performer (but hard to get) Edlelbrock B262. Who knows, we might do all three. Perhaps even also with the original OEM dual quad setup. Dyno time is expensive, and I don't really think there would be much to gain by that anyway, other than a benchmark.

    Erik
     
  12. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    It sounds great EriK!
    Keep us posted on the results!
     
  13. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Here are some pics
     

    Attached Files:

  14. DugsSin

    DugsSin Well-Known Member

    Looking forward to the results, personally I won't waste the time and money with the Offy manifold. I've yet to hear of anyone who gained any performance with it.

    Will you be running the exhaust crossover open or closed in the manifolds.
     
  15. telriv

    telriv Well-Known Member

    Erik, there's much performance to be gained by the head work alone. It would be a waste to be soooo far & not do any head work. I know, above many other things that you'll be pleased with the results. The cam selection is also a very important topic/issue, many recommendations, many are mostly inaccurate. Ask lots of questions through many different, experienced NailHeaders. Go to the NailHead site, so much invaluable information. Many things are not agreed upon as we all have our own thoughts, opinions, experiences, etc, but a wealth of info otherwise.
     
  16. 4toe

    4toe Well-Known Member

    The Eelco 2x4 is on the way to the shop and I will bring along the edelbrock and the stock manifold when the engine is ready. I understand it is being assembled now.
     
  17. JEFF STRUBE

    JEFF STRUBE Well-Known Member

    Whats up on the Eelco intake is it as good as the Edelbrock intake?

    Is this intake able to be purchased at this time?
     
  18. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Thats the million dollar question! That's what I'm paying to find out...
    Ok...not really quite a million dollars, but I want to know the same thing, and Marty (4toe) is putting up! The anticipation is growing!!! This is going to be good!

    Erik Schmidt
     
  19. 4toe

    4toe Well-Known Member

    The intakes are available at this time. We have sold quite a few of them and have had an overwhelmingly good response as to the quality of the castings and the seat of your pants performance. The manifold was based on the already popular and proven edelbrock manifold. We sacrificed a few B262's in our research to find any design flaws that may have been present. Given the fact that we have better technology than they did in the 60's. Using published flow data from nailhead engines and common formulas for determining volumetric efficiency; we where able to determine that as good as the edelbrock is; there where inconsistencies in the runner volume and the fuel channels (ribs in the bottom of the plenum) where slightly restrictive. We made the changes and upgrades to the design and also made the manifold cosmetically different by creating a completely new carb. mounting flange that was significantly stronger and eliminated the chances of breaking out the mounting bolts. The heat exchangers where also reduced in volume to keep the manifold temps lower and therefore produce horsepower. With all these changes I am certain that we produced a winner. I swapped the eelco manifold with a b262 that I had on my lesabre and immediately could tell the difference. Most of which was at 2500 to 4000 rpm; which is a common operating range for a 2x4. This manifold merely resembles the b262 but as you can tell it is a completely new design. We now have an opportunity to aquire independent testing and I for one and excited to get the results.
     
  20. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    Hi 4toe, will this intake fit under the riv hood or skylark gs with a after market air filter? Thanks
    Bob
     

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