2003 GSE Rules

Discussion in 'GSE Street Eliminator Series' started by Jeff Hart, Dec 1, 2002.

  1. quickgs

    quickgs New Member

    rules

    I agree with Jim W on the rules.I would let any door car that is buick powered and has buick heads, run in the class.Make them weigh 3200 or 3300 lbs, and make them run mufflers, and then let blowers. turbos, superchargers, nitrous, etc run.I think you would get a wide variety of cars then.It would also cut down on tech time.Just make sure they are the minimum weight , and run .There are alot of cars that could run, and i think they would.Maby have the participants put in $25 a car or something like that to raise a little money.Just tossing out ideas.Good luck on whatever you guys decide.
     
  2. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Game ON!!!

    Hey Gary, I agree. If you can run any size tire, taking away wheelie bars helps even the odds. Even though big tires would bring more cars to the class it would give them a bit of an advantage on a bad track, all things being eqaul. But maybe another "deterrent" should be considered.

    Maybe with time and as the race class developes, it could be split into a small and large tire class with more definement on the rules. But for now, it will bring a little purpose to bring the BAD Buicks out of storage.

    I like JW rules posted, I could live with it for now as long as it could be run on an 1/8 mi. format and maybe take away wheelie bars. :TU: :TU: :TU:
     
  3. Bobb Makley

    Bobb Makley Well-Known Member

    To all


    I would like to address Gary first. I did hear what you said about weight at the nats and I went to all of the drivers and asked them each about the rules as I did you. Both Warren and Jim said they had no interest in cutting up their cars any more to make weight. I spoke with Gagle to but I don't remember his exact response but it was similar to the other two. That leaves you for the weight change. As I told all of you last year that it was your class and I would do what you all felt to be best. But it needed to be a majority deal and far to all. One other thing that was asked by a couple of guy's was to penalize warren for having a sheet metal intake. I refused to do that because I feel that these guy's are supposed to be the baddest dogs in town and if you don't step up then you lose.

    With that said. I will tell you how I feel about GSP. I have always felt it was a poorly named class those cars are no more PRO street than a man in the moon. Tire restrictions on Pro Street please. The BIGGER the better, back halfed ground scrappers with motors hanging out of the hood that is Pro Street.
    I personally have no use for spraying anything. I have built several and it is cheap power. You can take a motor that won't get out of it's own way strap on the juice and hell yes. I'm for making huge changes for the class but it's a little on the late side. Rule needed to be changed and submitted by the first of the month. The GSCA likes to have them in place so they can start the process of getting them print in the program and changed on the Internet. Or we are told anyway and having done some of this last year I understand why. I spoke to Jeff earlier about this and we decided that we would leave the rules as is this year, but if we do not have cars than we will make blanket changes for next year. I agree with most all of the rules JW posted and have printed them off for the sake of keeping them. Would hate to have the post get deleted by accident:Dou: . I know this may not be what you would like to hear but I will make a couple of calls tomorrow and see about the weight issue but that is all I could see changing if they will let us do that.

    Rick

    To address the 1/8-mile question it will remain the same this year and I would guess after that also. I understand your concern on parts breakage and I Know in the south there is a lot of short tracks to run on and that they do run 1/8 at BG. But (The big but) I feel that most of the people that watch this stuff want to see the big numbers on the boards. And 1/8-mile times mean nothing to most of the people. So if we were going to run 1/8 mile we could just run 60's and do big wheels stands and they would be happy. I'm sure you all understand that the heads up classes are for the spectators as much as the races maybe even more so. It brings back the old days when you just came and raced no one cared how big your tires were or if you had it on the bottle.

    I hope this helps a little I don't know that it will but at least you know were I stand
    .
     
  4. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

    Cutting up their cars?!!!
    That is a place where THEY can "step up"

    Instead of adding stuff to your 12 second car until it has just enough to go 9'[& 10's.....Let them use chromoly,let them add a rack&pinion,let them acid dip.

    Cagle's car can weigh down around 3300/3400,as for Turner and Heaps not wanting to cut their cars up,thats a load on their part.

    My car is more complete than those two and 300 lbs lighter.

    Sorry if it seems like I'm dumping this on you Bobb,But like I said before...there is already a class for heavy cars..GSE
     
  5. GS Kubisch

    GS Kubisch THE "CUT-UP" BUICK

    Name change

    And on top of it all,I think the term "Pro Street" is outdated and doesn't do the cars justice.

    How about GSO -GS Outlaw-

    Sounds sinister,I think just putting the letters on my window would pick me up a tenth.
     
  6. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP


    Geeze.. a guy makes on little mistake...:pp


    I would like to see a class along the lines of this discussion develop, on the national event level, and interested players should contact me via email, offer suggestions and opinions on the rules structure for them... I will save all the correspondence, and then when we get ready to do the BPG nats in '04, we can get together with the current and prospective players, and hammer out a set of rules. Hopefully, there will be harmony between the various clubs out there, so we can do somthing with this class, to draw more participants, and have some fun, heads up racing at these events, with more than just a few cars. I might even consider forgoing the tube chassis in my new car, and build just a backhalf, to be able to compete..

    How 'bout this... if you have a backhalf, you are limited to SE STG 2 or STG 1 Alum or iron heads..? (there is not a ton of diff between STG 2 SE's/Alum STG 1's now)... but they are not TE's/3's/4's..

    OR a 200lb bump for the big tire (over 12" measured width) STG 2 TE,/3/4 cars.. 3400lbs instead of 3200.. that might bring the current guys back in.. with all their God given HP.. and continue to make them competative. And this will open the class up for even more cars...

    And any type of power adder gets the 200lb penalty. That should help level the field, and they you have either NA 3200 lbs STG 1/2SE cars, or 3400 lbs cars, with more HP, via different heads or power adders.

    More cars... More cars...


    That's the name of the game folks..

    The current rules, and reality, are just a little too far apart, for a lot of the cars out there.. you have to purpose build a car for this class. That will kill participation every time. Although I always give a big :TU: to those who have already built that car, and certainly want to structure the rules to keep them competative. But open it up to more players..

    I also would have no problem with forward facing hood scoops, since this is a "Pro Street" or "Outlaw" class.

    But (sorry Rick) we should keep it 1/4 mile... your combo should live, with a gear change... and new blocks/other parts should be available as time goes on.

    I would love to see some 150+ mph GS's, racing heads up. That would be fun.

    Lots of possiblities...

    By the way... GS"O" is a cool name..:TU: It should be designated on the cars as "GS Outlaw"... just because it's cool... and offers instant name recognition, to those who are not directly involved.. you know.. answer the "What's the name mean" spectator question right up front...

    And since it's named "GS".. it should be limited to that body style, as the Regal Body has a definate Aero advantage.

    JW
     
  7. BUICK528

    BUICK528 Big Red

    Welp

    I like:

    GSO name

    NOT cutting cars up

    NO wheelie bars

    3500#

    1/4 mile...or forget the whole thing...

    Jim
     
  8. bad-buford

    bad-buford Well-Known Member

    Jim I think we are headed in the right direction with this class, I like the idea of making this a Big event at the first BPG bash. Plus that would be great for Rick and I who may not be around much this year. Most heads up racing have weight breaks like you have posted. As for the actual weights and breaks I would get togather with some of the S16 guys and see where they sit. We now that GS k will be down to 3400/3300 with some work and Rick is at 3300 with driver already. Now I'm lite (2900 with driver)and I know I have a lot of work to do to add weight. Since this is a purpose built class or will be. I would throw out there 3000# for NA cars and Iron headed cars with power adders. 3200# for cars with power adders(not including the iron boys). Again these are just a thought we need to hear from more guys.

    Does this sound do-able GS k/Rick? I ask this question of these two guys because they have some of the fastest "stock cars" that say they what to play. Could you make the weight??

    As far a tires go I think they will work themselves out. I don't want or need my 32x14.5W tires at 160-170mph on the big end, but allowing the big tires at first will open things up in the begining years.

    Bobb M. I understand your thoughts on spray, but if you take a engines that can't get out of it's own way and spray it for this class a guy would not be able to get out of everyone elses way here. Rick went 9:80's on motor and could go 9:70's if it wasn't setup for juice (ie torque converter, gear and such), But I to went thought the no juice thing about tens ago it just grew on me

    If this gets of the ground I may have some lite weight stuff for sale ie doors, rear bumper, rear lexan:jd:
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2002
  9. Bobb Makley

    Bobb Makley Well-Known Member

    Jim

    You and I need to talk we could work this so there was the same rules for two events that benifits all those involved:TU: .
     
  10. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    further thinking and explaination

    Definately Bobb... I think that harmony between clubs and events can only lead to good things, and it would be nice to put together a GSO/GSE race series... you and the other GSE guys have certainly paved the way for that, and I am impressed at the dedication of the GSE gang, in developing the series you now have. I know personally that any kind of oranizational effort takes a lot of work and personal time.

    JH... I understand not cutting up real GS's, and am certainly not in favor of that at this stage of the game.. the rules inclusion/weight breaks are suggested as a means to further the participation and interest in this class, while still allowing the current cars to stay competative.

    And I have no qualms about building a GS replica back-halved race car out of a Skylark, and wearing a few sawzall blades out on one of those. I don't see much difference between building a GS race car clone, and building a GS Street car clone... Both can be very nice cars, if done correctly. I don't think you will find a lot of folks who will look at a real nice backhalved GS clone race car, and not appreciate the time, effort and $$ that goes into building one of those.

    And allowing folks to build big-tired replica GS's, now opens participation numbers up in that class, as this type of car can be run sucessfully at an indivdual's local track, with the often less than optimum traction conditions. It gets them away from being purpose built cars. Allowing the spray further opens the class up, and quite frankly, the durablity of a stock block, with a healthy dose of N20 will be a self-limiting factor... your not going to see $5k motors with N20 winning this class... you might see a lot of breakage from folks trying. I personally would build a motor for just this event, prolly with STG 2 TE Heads and N20, and compete at the 3400 lbs proposed weight. That motor would have an aftermarket block, crank, rods, ect... and be a big cube deal.. Then I would have a more conventional race motor to wear out at local bracket races.

    So now, I can have a car that runs competativly in the local/regional events, and also have one that I can take to these national events, and run both a heads up class, and a "Super Class". That interests me, and I am sure a lot of other folks. Bulding a competative big cube N20 motor is not going to be inexpensive for sure, but it will be more practical than bulding a whole car, for just a few races.

    I am quite sure that much discussion and input needs to be gathered, and rules will need tweeking and modifying, but it looks like this thing could come together nicely. I think everyone is after the same thing.. that being a fun/lightly ruled heads up race class. And yes, I know "lightly ruled" and "heads up" are conflicting terms.. :error:

    I guess time will tell.

    JW
     
  11. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    1/8th mile?!

    If you need I'll get a list together of those all for 1/8 mile if needed.
    As for spectators, its just dragging out the drama taking it to the 1/4. I don't remember many sepectators sitting down at the end of a 1/4 mi, they are all at the starting line. I've been to plenty of 1/4 mi events at Rockingham and when the 10.5 tire-wheel-standing monsters line up there isn't a place to be had along the fence or in the staging area and most of the people "browsing around" come to the line to watch them race. Oh, and they run them only 1/8 mi. I don't think 1/8 or 1/4 will really matter to spectators. It's not like you can see them cross the line from the stands or staging area.
    Do you think for one second that someone will pass at watching WHEEL-STANDING, SCREEMERS just because its not 1/4? I don't think it would take people long to figure out the cars are fast. If anything it would make them more curious.
    People watch to see the cars Not for the numbers on the board!(Again, where are people watching from)Of coarse they're important but mostly who wins and who loses. Do you think if Mike's battle wagon pulled up to the line and was only going to run 1/8 mi that no one would watch?
    You will be hard pressed to get people to build faster cars for the 1/4 mi or at least enough to make a class. Its too hard on the Buick block. No one wants to build a motor to blow it up. They just want to go fast. There are too many cases of blown motors:stmad: and too many skeptics on power adder 1/4 mi Buicks.
    Give them hope of keeping it together by making it 1/8 mi. :Smarty: :TU:
     
  12. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    Rick,

    I certainly understand your point of view. I have participated in many an 1/8 mile race, and have no problem with that type of venue. And I certainly understand that your running 1/8 mile to keep the parts together longer.

    But that's now..


    I do beleive in 3-5 years most folks with serioius race cars will be sporting an aftermarket block, as they replace their current stuff as it ages/breaks. Then parts durablity will not be anywhere near the issue it is now.

    As far as from a drivers point of view, having competed in hundreds of eliminators, 1/8 mile is fun, but 1/4 mile definately is more of a thrill. I also like racing on the longer tracks, as after you pull high gear, you get to 'watch' your race develop. 1/8 mile just comes and goes too quickly, although I have won some big buck 1/8 mile races.

    So, as I have stated, my personal feeling is to run this 1/4 mile.

    But as with any attempt to gather a group of racers together, to run some type of class, the will of the participants weighs heavily on the rules. At this point, I am not seeing a lot of support to run this race 1/8th mile.

    From a spectators point of view, watching 2 GS's scream off the starting line, and cover the 1/4 mile in somewhere near 9 seconds flat at 150 mph or faster is a big thrill. And when and if this class fully develops they will be going a lot quicker than that. Breaking the 150,160, and maybe even 170 mph barriers will be front page news, and going to 1/8 mile will kill that.

    I certainly would hate to see something like this keep you out of the class, as I would love to watch your car leave.. looks like a hoot! I hope you can understand the reasoning, and look forward to racing with you in the future.


    JW
     
  13. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Rules?

    I prefer not to have "BIG" tire allowed. It takes away from it being a DRIVERS race .The small tire 10.5 under 30", makes for more of a competitive field of racing. THis just being my thoughts and experience.


    My rules,

    2003 GS Pro Street-GSP/Buick Outlaw

    Cars base weight 3300lbs. Must retain 50% on the front wheels.

    Car must be a Buick originally equipped with a v-8.

    Front end aftermarket direct-replacement components are allowed as long as stock mounting points are maintained on components and frame. Coilover shocks are permitted in stock spring location.

    Front framerails must remain in the stock location and may not be altered for the purpose of providing tire clearance. Tubular crossmembers are permitted.

    Back-halved combinations are permitted. If the stock frame is notched, it must be reinforced in a manner acceptable to NHRA/IHRA. Any strengthening members may be added to a stock frame.

    No limit on gear ratio. Any rear housing is legal.

    Any torque converter is legal. Trans brakes are legal. All shifts are to be made by driver, no air or electronic shifters allowed.

    Bracket racing aids such as optical sensors, delay boxes, stutter boxes, and throttle stops are not allowed. The application or use of any device, mechanical or electronic, that permits the driver to as certain the position of their vehicle in relation to the starting line is prohibited.

    Progressive systems and timers, which control nitrous/fuel delivery, are permitted. Electronic or automated boost controllers of any type are allowed on any forced induction vehicle.

    Any size exhaust system with any mass production avaliable muffler. Must terminate behind the drivers seat and exit by means of a turn down.

    Two fiberglass front seats OK, rear seat is optional if it interferes with a roll cage, however, the exposed area must be carpeted or covered with upholstery. Aluminum rear floor kits/trunk kits/wheel tubs ok

    Fiberglass bumpers are legal.

    Hood is required and may be made of lightweight material. May be liftoff. Hood scoop allowed but may not extend more than 8 inches above original hood surface at top of opening for nitrous cars; 11 inches is acceptable for N/A cars. Hood/scoop must cover entire engine and induction components.

    Cars must be fully painted. racecar paint schemes ok, but no lettering

    Any cubic inch allowed.

    No clutchless transmissions such as Lencos, Jerico, etc..

    Fuel cells are legal.

    Gasoline is the only fuel allowed. The addition of chemical additives intended to alter the makeup of the gasoline for increased performance is strictly prohibited. During fuel check, a competitor must identify the brand of gasoline being used. The sample will be considered illegal if it does not match the baseline results (ex. color, dielectric reading +or-.2, and chemical tests). Failure to pass fuel check is grounds for disallowance of the run during competition and disqualification from the event during eliminations.


    There is a 10.5" tire limitation(by sidewall designation).
    "W" tire ok. Any height. The tread of tires must not protrude outside of the exterior of bodyline at top of tires.

    Rear suspension may be aftermarket 4-link, ladder bar, or modified stock suspension.

    Cars may run fuel Injection or multiple carbs if it fits under the hood. Any cylinder head designed for a Buick is legal.

    Sheetmetal intakes ok but only on natually aspirated motors.

    Any power adder is legal but limited to one type. No combination of power adders.

    Cars will run heads-up off a ladder with fastest cars racing slowest off a pro tree.

    Weight breaks:
    3150- iron headed motors
     
  14. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    My big 1/8 mi point is there are alot of guys out there who stuck all there money into a stock block and can't afford the change. I know of three or four guys at least. Unless you look to loose alot of money, it will be hard to get rid of an old stock block now when the new one is around the corner. To keep what you have and swap what you can over to a new block is still quite expensive not to mention the wait for machine work.:sleep: In 3-5 years, your right, there will probably be enough cars to go the 1/4. I was just looking at the next 3-4 then bumping the class up to 1/4 mi. There are plenty of motors together that could take a power adder and go fast but probably not through the 1/4. I was looking at a class that people could run faster in that wouldn't rip there pocket books appart trying to keep them together. Its not my fault. I'm just posing different avenues.
    Maybe there needs to be a GSP And a GSO. :Do No:

    What if a bunch of us Buick guys got together and agree to run on our rules in a class format and come up with our own purse?Would we be allowed in somewhere during a Buick event as an "exhibition" class if properly coordinated?
     
  15. Jeff Hart

    Jeff Hart Platinum Level Contributor

    GSP for 2003 has gone on a diet... That is it for this upcoming year.:grin:
     
  16. alan

    alan High-tech Dinosaur

    Power adders and non-GS cars allowed? (or at least non-GS from the windshield back! :Brow: )
     
  17. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Run It

    Any Buick that originally came with a v-8 can run. I'll e-mail you the "exhibition rules".
     
  18. BUICK528

    BUICK528 Big Red

    wELP...

    Bobb, there is no sense in talking, UNLESS the cars that say they will show up at an event...DO SHOW UP...right?:Do No: I'm not going to spend another year planning to host a class, and then in the last 2 weeks before show time, get told no one is going to make it...

    I am NOT going to go through that again.

    Jim
     
  19. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Right

    Jim, I'll second that. Its too much work if nobody is going to race.



    But, we'll see.:grin:
     
  20. BUICK528

    BUICK528 Big Red

    Re: Right

    Your right Rick....not to mention all *MY* expenses that *I* got stiffed for last year at BOP Bristol, that I NEVER even got offered to be re-imbursed for either...:af: All they wanted was their pre-entry fee's refunded (which they got) for being a no-show, while I got the luxury of eating ALL of their event class expenses.

    Jim
     

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