1970 GS455 4 speed convertible IDAHO

Discussion in 'Ebay Parts and Cars' started by Roadmaster49, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. dl7265

    dl7265 No car then Mopar

    Easy, they aren't registered as a real car. But if you tag a car, and your buddy buys it three owners later, then he get's hosed. Frankly I don't want to see that happen to anyone.
    Same thing with fakes, clones, replicas or what ever the current feel good wording is. May not be the builders intention to defraud anyone, but sooner or later it will happen.


    DL
     
  2. Doo Wop

    Doo Wop Where were you in '62?

    Check with your DMV and see what they have to say about swapping a VIN.
     
  3. Roadmaster49

    Roadmaster49 Well-Known Member

    You're not swapping a VIN. You are replacing a body. A vehicle is a lot more then a body.
     
  4. once you remove the V.I.N tag from the old body and place it on the new one that is considered a vin swap. i bet the state police also see it differently than you do
     
  5. Hawken

    Hawken Hawken

    State law usually controls where the line is for purposes of titling vehicles - and Federal law likely bears on this discussion as well, but generally speaking, the act of removing a VIN tag from a body &/or placing a VIN tag from a different vehicle on a body is a treshold action requiring disclosure, reporting and possibly inspection by authorities for verification.

    There is also a "body" vs. "chassis" issue here as to the ultimate issue. Someone wanting to change a body will inevitably promote the position that the heart of the car is the engine/chassis and someone changing a chassis will promote the body is the heart of the car. The body is the part of the car with the most direct (&complete) VIN in terms of formal VIN plate (thus the focus on the act of removing/replacing a VIN plate), though date coding and partial VIN or body number sequence may be present - in part or whole - on other major non-body parts of the car (for our years of old cars).

    By far, the more interesting aspect to this discussion - and the example which really pushes the entire issue and argument - is what happens in the case involving a "replacement body shell" when that shell is really inclusive of the majority of the unibody structure of the car ... meaning: the body and most of the chassis are integral. Hmmmmm. So in the case of Camaro & Mustang "replacement body shells", you just bolt on front and rear subframes ... and, viola, you have a new car. Change a VIN plate and .. then what? In this example, there is no separate body and (complete) frame.

    For example on this issue, here are IOWA DOT Regulations:
    761400.16 (321) Application for certificate of title or original registration for a specially
    constructed
    , reconstructed, street rod or replica motor vehicle.
    400.16(1) Definitions applicable to this rule.
    a. Ownership document for the vehicle means the certificate of title, the manufacturers
    certificate of origin, the junking certificate, or other evidence of ownership acceptable to the department.
    b. Ownership documents for essential parts means bills of sale for all essential parts used
    to construct or reconstruct the vehicle
    . Each bill of sale shall contain a description of the part, the
    manufacturers identification number of the part
    , if any, and the name, address, and telephone number
    of the seller.
    400.16(2) Procedures. This subrule describes the procedures for obtaining department approval
    to title and register a specially constructed, reconstructed, street rod or replica motor vehicle. The
    procedures described are in addition to the regular procedures for titling and registering a vehicle
    .
    a. The applicant shall apply to the county treasurer for a certificate of title and registration. The
    county treasurer, upon receiving an application that indicates the vehicle is a specially constructed,
    reconstructed, street rod or replica motor vehicle, shall forward the application to a motor vehicle
    investigator of the department
    .
    b. The investigator shall contact the applicant in person or by telephone and schedule a time and
    place for an examination of the vehicle and the ownership documents. The applicant, when appearing
    with the vehicle for the examination, shall submit to the investigator the ownership document for the
    vehicle, the ownership documents for essential parts
    , and a weigh ticket indicating the weight of the
    vehicle. However, a weigh ticket is not required for motorcycles, trucks, truck tractors, road tractors or
    trailer-type vehicles.
    c. If the investigator determines that the vehicle complies with 761Chapter 450, that the integral
    parts and components have been identified as to ownership, and that the application has been completed
    properly:
    (1) The investigator shall approve the application, affix to the vehicle an assigned vehicle
    identification number
    , and return the application and ownership documents to the applicant. The
    investigator shall also give to the applicant an assigned vehicle identification number (VIN) form that
    the applicant shall submit with the application to the county treasurer
    .
    (2) If the vehicle is a passenger-type motor vehicle, the department shall determine its weight and
    value. The vehicle weight shall be fixed at the next even 100 pounds above the actual weight of the
    vehicle fully equipped, as provided in Iowa Code section 321.162. The weight and value shall constitute
    the basis for determining the annual registration fee under Iowa Code section 321.109, except as provided
    in Iowa Code section 321.113.
    (3) The applicant shall then submit the approved application, ownership document for the vehicle,
    and VIN form to the county treasurer and continue with the regular title and registration process.
    400.16(3) Disapproval. If the department determines that the vehicle does not comply with
    761Chapter 450, that the integral parts or components have not been identified as to ownership, or
    that the application has not been completed properly, then the department shall not approve the vehicle
    for titling and registration.
    400.16(4) Model year. The model year of a specially constructed, reconstructed, street rod or
    replica motor vehicle is the year the vehicle is approved by the department as a specially constructed,
    reconstructed, street rod or replica motor vehicle
    .
    This rule is intended to implement Iowa Code sections 321.20, 321.23, 321.24, 321.52, 321.109 and
    321.162.


    I bet the very last entry above (400.16(4)) is for emissions regulations. My point is that there are indeed a wide range of laws in play in this process - and from state & Federal jurisdictions.

    While the above example of regulations in Iowa is primarily for constructing motor vehicles, I beleive most people who would pursue a "body swap" would already have a VIN and title and may not have to go through the entire process ... if they are silent to authorities on the process. But, note that most states have Salvage laws which are very similar to this inspection and proof of origin/purchase of replacement parts and repair work performed in order to "resurrect" or "rehab" a salvage title into an operational title & registration.

    So, this is the legal side of the equation. The real issue (for me) is what a prospective Seller who has navigated this process communicates to a prospective Buyer? This is where the moral portion of the issue is.

    If I were to spend some serious money on a restored car ... I'd sure be asking (among many other issues) the Seller when did you buy this car, how long have you owned it and what's been done to it while you've owned it? And ... here's an affidavit to sign. My .02 cents.
     
  6. marxjunk

    marxjunk Well-Known Member

    well said...



    why is it when people come to morals and cars, the line gets fuzzy, and some people can just about justify the reason to commit fraud..which is representing something to be something its not...and a federal offense of VIN tampering..which is TAKING A VIN AND APPLYING IT TO ANOTHER VEHICLE THATS ALREADY BEEN ASSIGNED A VIN?

    WRONG IS WRONG, NOT MATTER HOW YOU JUSTIFY THE END....
     
  7. Roadmaster49

    Roadmaster49 Well-Known Member

    Ken and Mark, I appreciate your counter point. I am not saying there is only one way. Ken, your post was well thought out. BUT, in trying to decipher the meaning, it became almost more grey to me. It did not specifically describe what we are discussing. It seems to be a "catch all" aimed at street rods.

    For the vehicle in question, what is the most vaulable aspect about it? The VIn and the provenance that goes along with it i.e. the build sheet. Combine that with the remaining original parts which identify the vehicle - 4 speed, posi, interior, options and yes the body. It has a self described NOM, which is common. By taking this governmental ruling to the extreme, does a NOM constitute an ethical inaccuracy? Normally no, but what if this was a Stage 1 car? Now it has a different 455 in it, even if disclosed, does that invalidate the VIN?

    Virtually everyone would say NO. I point this out because these government "rules", though well intending, can not work all the time. Practical, common sense application of ethics is no less ethical. I agree with Ken, an affidavit to follow the vehicle would be appropriate.

    On a similar note, how many times have we seen ebay and CL auctions and ads that have a parts car go along with the (usually more desirable and rarer) main vehicle. This is an application of common ethical practice.

    I still say, the post that wondered aloud if a donor 1970 Skylark convertible with a deent body would not be a better way to go for a restoration, is a perfectly acceptable alternative to creating a mish mash of panels welded in and probably costing several thousands more. Again, the classic car folks do it all the time.

    I think of a "VIN swap" as taking a VIN off one complete restorable or restored car and physically placing it on another complete restored or restorable vehicle for the purpose of deception or fraud. See - chop shops, thieves, overtly greedy people who want to make money off a false VIN identification.

    This is such a grey area. I mean, Mark, what if there is a 1970 Skylark convertible that is totalled in the front, the title is salvaged and there is no hope for the vehicle going back on the road and the body is pristine. It is a better application (in my opinion) to sell that as is to a restorer to use that body on a car like the initial one for this auction.

    Unethical? Practical? I find on this subject more then any other that the two sides, both with valid arguments - will never agree.

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 AM ----------

    I also might add that once you create a salvage title or the vehicle is no longer a titled vehicle the VIN is invalid, can no longer be used to title a vehicle.

    So, you can use any part off the salvage title vehicle for the purpose of restoration, in my opinion. It would be great if we had a vehicle title attorney weigh in, but that's unlikely. I worked as a title clerk for the state of Iowa and as a titling agent for Wells Fargo so I know a little bit about it, but am no expert.
     
  8. Hawken

    Hawken Hawken

    Salvage titles can indeed be "restored" or "rebuilt" and they are. Some states allow it and others do not. This is part of the point that I was making earlier - that each state has its own requirements, rules and prohibitions on this subject ... and the Feds have a few others (but the states current laws generally are written to conform to those). On this subject, it's very difficult (and likely patently wrong) to state one can or can't do something, especially when based on just one state's laws - especially if one's recollection is based on experience of "a few years ago or more" - because this area of the law has changed over the last 15, 10 or 5 years in order to deal with rebuilders (salvage cars), emissions compliance and fraud issues.

    My earlier post was meant to dive into what I thought was probably your home state (Iowa) in order to show that there was indeed formal regulations for re-VINing cars, etc. So, my first point was purely a legal statement and that each state has its own process, but once your through that process and have a titled and registered car, what next?

    That's where the moral part takes over. What one person believes as a Seller may be dramatically different as a Buyer regarding the same vehicle. To be certain, caveat emptor and do your homework. Is is better that this 1970 GS 455 4-spd Conv. be saved ... I think so. But is it right for a Seller to be untruthful about a re-bodied car? This is where I intended to leave my post. I would answer that that if the Seller is honest about what s/he states and when asked by a prospective Buyer, then that is all I could expect. Is a rebodied collector car worth the same as one which is not, I beleive NOT and I think the market would prove me correct. For that to happen, though, there has to be disclosure. But, money does funny things to people, sometimes.
     
  9. 65specialconver

    65specialconver kennedy-bell MIA

    Really? ANOTHER VIN argument?Sheesh!:puzzled:
     
  10. George D.

    George D. Platinum Level Contributor

    Jamie...was going to link the multiple page post from the last discussion... :Smarty::TU:
     
  11. Roadmaster49

    Roadmaster49 Well-Known Member

    Back on topic. There are 10 hours left and the bidding has been at $5600 for 2 days. I expect a flurry of last minute bids, would be fun to watch.
     
  12. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    Realistically, it will probably cost you 75k to restore it. And when your done, you'll have a very nice 65k car (in a good market and if your lucky)
     
  13. SmittyDawg

    SmittyDawg Need another garage....

    x2 :gp:
     
  14. Roadmaster49

    Roadmaster49 Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is a hobby. Once restored, can you imagine the smile and fun when you throw a bag in the back seat and go off on a ride? Man, and it will retain it's value, under normal owner-stewardship. It's too bad so many ( and I am not saying you 2 are focued on investment, but in general ) focus on "how much can I make" on it.
     
  15. JZRIV

    JZRIV Platinum Level Contributor

    5 hours to go and still at $5600!

    I'm guilty for being too focused on investment. I get beat up all the time over it. Its the only way I justify spending the money I work so hard to make. I know many aren't like me though.
    Fixing up old cars can be a break even or get ahead process monetarily with a little self study, pre-planning and ability/willingness to do things yourself. So I still have my fun hobby and don't lose money doing it. Win-win
     
  16. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    I will be interested to see how close the price gets to what I sold my GS455 4spd convert for. Here is the old add.
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.p...ctory-4spd-convertible-project-car&highlight=
     
  17. vonwolf

    vonwolf Silver Level contributor

  18. SmittyDawg

    SmittyDawg Need another garage....

    Not investment interested at all. Just agreeing with the cost to restore a vehicle in that condition. I have been involved in a few concours GS restorations, and it is a spendy proposition unless you can do most of the work yourself.

    And I completely agree with the enjoyment factor....I still kick myself for selling my very first car that I got when I was 16 (back in 1972)...a 1965 Gran Sport, red with black vinyl roof, Hurst 4 speed. Had SO much fun in that car in high school...miss it like crazy and would love to have another some day.

    I have owned my 70 GS convert since 1982....my kids grew up in that car. The momories are priceless, and I would not sell it for any price. The car is already willed to my daughter when I kick the bucket. Hopefully I get it reassembled before that happens:laugh:
     
  19. Roadmaster49

    Roadmaster49 Well-Known Member

    $7101 ended. So not as much as my $10,000 to $15,000 prediction but a little more then $5,000.
     
  20. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    Now lets see if the buyer comes through. I usually have to list a car 2 to 3 times to weed out the deadbeats. I betcha it gets relisted
     

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