Bill and Jim, "I aasume that cast color may be the basis for one of his deductions." "Do we assume that even with some debate based on how some contend their original cars looked (without tailpipe paint) that the concours' Gardner exhaust package as delivered will result in a deduction unless the tail pipes are painted black from the rear axles housing to the outlet tip?" The answers are No and No. As stated previously, we have no knowledge that the rear swaybars, or tailpipes were all painted black from the factory. That is why we ALLOW ranges of colors/gloss for specific parts, AND why we do not take any points deductions off of parts that could have come with different finishes. Duane PS. Guys, this is not a game to see who's car is better then the other guys. It is a study to see how close we can make our cars look like the way they were when they rolled out of the showroom. That's it, nothing more. A Gold Concours winner means that the car has earned between 400-385 points, and in my eyes they are all the same. Period.
Duane You cannot unring the bell with the GS Xtacy car plastering all over the internet that he has the best X in the world. Some of the rest of us are calling him out but in a friendly kind of way.
Jim, I could care less who says they have the best GSX in the world, and to be honest, the one that many consider the most correctly restored example is only put on display, because the owner doesnt feel the need to compete, and is more interested in quote, sharing the wealth and helping others. But, beyond that, this type of discussion has nothing to do with answering questions about the correctness of a restoration or how cars are judged at the Concours level. One of the main reasons this Class was put together in the first place, was to have cars of this caliber judged against a standard and not each other. The idea was to build a sense of camaraderie and friendship, and it works. Its really cool to see how owners of these cars welcome new people to the ranks and help each other, including myself. I dont think this My dog is better then your dog way of thinking belongs on this thread. Duane
At age 62 and climbing, it is refreshing to see that Judges try to devote the time to a class of cars that deserve consideration as concours cars and measured against a standard of correctness and excellence in attempts to reach perfection -- which will never happen unless you have a time capsule with a car from Flint in it preserved. It is the attempt that deserves the credit not necessarily the result. Keep up the good work. This is my goal as an Olds Judge and I will keep trying each year and hoping to do a job that will someday get me free water. Thanks Duane. PS I am printing this info so I can Judge my own car. John
You are absolutely right, Duane, it doesn't belong here. I apologize. But the standards that we must use for a guideline for the restorations do, which is why I started the thread in the first place. I am restoring this car for a guy who lives 1,000 miles away from me so it is very important that I get it right the first time. Although I cannot guarantee that he win a gold everytime, I feel it is my job to do everything I can to make it happen. Traveling that far to paint a sway bar a different color could get expensive :laugh: Bill
Bill, Not a problem. There are two things that everyone needs to keep in mind; 1. Is that as we learn more, the restorations get better and better. Case in point, we did not know when the heavy duty shocks changed over until I did my research last year and published it in the BPG newsletter "The Buildsheet". So how could older restorations have included this info when it was not known at the time when they were built. Restorations are and always have been a "work in progress", especially at this level. 2. The idea that you will get everything right the first time is an un-attainable goal, and that point should be "explained" to the owners if you are building a car for someone. There are something like 50,000 pieces needed to assemble one of these cars, and we don't always catch everything that is incorrect the first time through. With only 15 minutes to look at a car there is no way that is possible. Case in point, and I will use a current example for this one. When John Arangio first brought out his car, he had me pre-judge it a few days before the show. Now I do this for anyone that asks, so there is nothing special about that request. We looked the car over quickly and found about 15 small things that were incorrect. (This number of deductions would have clearly knocked him out of the Gold spot.) John spent the next 3 days picking through parts bins and cleaning/painting/installing everything before the show. The car did win a Gold the first time out, but boy was he tired. In later shows a few more items were discovered to be incorrect, and John changed them. But, the car got better each year, because the owner was interested in learning and took the time to correct things. Again, these are works in progress, and we are still learning. Duane
Just to add to Duane's comments, we as judges do NOT try to kill a car. I look at it as a means to help the owner correct minor flaws and as such, have a better car in the end. It is not possible to list every single item that may be wrong on a car when judging, especially in just 15 minutes. For that reason, the judging team may find other items wrong on a car the next time it is showed and list them for the owner to correct. This gives the owner a workable list to go from and correct instead of seeing 1000 entries that appear as Mt. Everest to him/her. I would much rather give an owner a list of "A, B and C" to correct and then the next time out "D, E and F" than to list the entire alphabet in one fell swoop.
Judges laying it on the line! I love it!! Thanks guys. You are right in all instances. Now, I hope we can get this Sticky thread headed back in the proper direction. Now what color was that front sway bar again?
:laugh: In the case of the car I am working on, the front one was clearly black but I found no paint on the rear one. Bill
Judges, thanks for looking at it this way, that really helps. I know when mine finally comes out of hibernation it will take plenty of hits, but I am expecting it and will take the list and move on to correction. How many points can I lose and still be gold?
Duane/Brad, Just curious, but do you know who will be judging the concours class this year at BG? Do you guys plan on returning to BG next year? Thanks for the GREAT thread! :beer
James, Sid Meyer will be heading up the judging this year. He is extremely knowledgable and is the guy that drafted Brad and I into judging in the first place. I don't know who he will be getting to help him, but everyone will be in good hands with Sid. Sid and his wife Belva are two of the finest people I have ever met. Sid will also be using the judging system that I developed for the GSCA club, so everything should be the same as it was last year. As to the other question, "Do you guys plan on returning to BG next year?", I guess we will decide at that time. Duane
I think it is important that there is a general concensous on how the rear axle should be painted. Mainly that there will be no point deductions for slight variations on how it is painted. The ultimate goal in these quests is to produce a "correct" restoration. It does not take any more labor to do it correctly, but we as a group have to define what is correct. I know that they were not all painted the same at every GM plant. Not to throw another monkey wrench in, but I sent Duane photos of the rear axle housing (in the car) from the car that I took the non-spiral shocks off, which were original. It's a 70 455 car from Spokane, WA. On this car the rear housing was NOT painted when assembled. It did have some black paint on the rear side that dripped down the rear cover but I believe this was from black paint that was applied to the underside after the car was assembled because it was on the lower portion of the shocks also. This does not mean the car before it or after it on the assembly line didn't get a painted rear end. This was not a computerized procedure. Maybe somebody took a lunch break and the rear in my car didn't get painted. I would hope that if I restored that car to the way it was built and painted, and provided photos of it before it was dismantled and during restoration, that somebody would not tell me that it is "wrong." Hopefully, someday, somebody, (Duane?) will produce a restoration manual that we can all rely on, like the Corvette people do (NCRS). Dennis Lyons
Yes Yes Yes . It should have the paint dabs and locations , finishes and decals /stickers and hanging paper tags needed to do a good resto for that class . I am trying my best not to screw up my 72 Stage 1 Suncoupe resto and hope to attain a gold for it . What about it . The color of the pait markings seems important as the finishes . Wheres that info and I have a 70 assembly manual reprint and its not giving up that info . I bet that some were the same on 72 but some were different . John
It seems the thread has drifted away from the original question, but i thought I would add to it anyway. I just removed a rearend from a 70 Skylark 4-Door and found it was a posi. The car is a Arizone car and has been sitting over 15 years. I removed the grease and dirt using a pressure washer and found the original color markings still there. there was a chalk marked 33 on the top and orange and white paint daubs on the bottom with a yellow LT (code for posi) I'll try to attach a picture of what I found. Ernie
I was thinking the same thing....You would think that if it WAS painted black, the black paint would at least adhere to those paint marks. My '66 rear only had some green paint stripes on it....no black, so that's how I restored it.
The cast center section does not have any paint on it. There was one small dab of green paint, I added a photo of it. It seems that the tubes didn't have paint on them either. I don't see any remnants of paint after power washing, but there are parts where the metal is like new. It's hard to believe that there's rust on them without every being painted, but this is Arizona, home of the dry heat. The parts shown have been degreased, power washed and then sprayed with POR's Metal Ready. I'm thinking of just clear coating the center section to save what's there. It's not going to be a 100 point show car, but I do like originality.
