Assessing democracies weakest link - Independence day 2015

Discussion in 'Help From Above' started by elagache, Jul 4, 2015.

  1. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Dear V-8 Buick thoughtful patriots, . . . .

    Independence day is a holiday with great revelry and fanfare - perhaps to a fault. Like Christmas, many look forward to the celebration, neglecting the importance of the occasion.

    Most of us cannot imagine the David versus Goliath battle that brought forth the United States. At that time, the American colonies were a backwater of the world, equivalent to any South American revolution today. Yet the American revolution is rightfully called that, not because it changed continents, but it changed ideas. The United States successful experiment in democracy changed how people thought nations could be governed. Now those ideas undeniably lead the world.

    However, the founding fathers didnt gamble naively on democracy. They were distrustful of power and literally pitted institutions against each other in order to maintain a balance. They also were deeply concerned about trusting the ultimate source of power in a democracy: the citizens themselves.

    Today we have removed most of the safeguards that the constitution placed on the citizenry to ensure that wisdom did prevail. The assumption is that people are educated enough to make wise decisions for themselves - but does this assumption hold up to scrutiny?

    Not long ago, the priest at the church I used to attend had a marvelous plan to raise some much needed revenue. He suggested that a cell-phone service provider be allowed to install a cellular antenna on church grounds for a monthly rental fee.

    The plan ran smack into strenuous opposition from parents of the children going to the Catholic school on church grounds. They were considered about the health issues associated with the electromagnetic radiation associated with the antenna.

    To those without the Physics background the electromagnetic spectrum is - light. Yes, it includes light at frequencies we cannot see like X-rays, radio waves and so, but it is light. Physics has had a good understanding of light since James Clark Maxwell wrote down his four equations around 1860.

    Even more troubling about this opposition was that: virtually all these people were guaranteed heavy cell phone users. Since, by necessity, radio system use the same frequencies to transmit and receive, if a cellular network antenna could be dangerous, so should a cell-phone.

    Nonetheless, these parents found some rogue claims in the Internet and insisted such antennas could be a hazard to their child, even in the face of scientific experts who insisted there was no such risk. Even more mind boggling, these parents made absolutely no attempt to try to come up with some other revenue source to offset the funds that would have helped their own childrens education. This even they were insisting on the sacrifice required so that their children would attend this private Catholic school. Is this they way they sought to give their children the best possible education?

    This is one example of many cases when as citizens we are required to form an opinion about something we lack the scientific understanding to reasonably assess. For most of us, any citizenship training ends in high school. Those who go to college do so mostly to learn a vocation. While we all should take advantage of college to broaden our minds - how many do? Even those who concern themselves with citizenship, does having a general understanding of science fall under being a good citizen? Times have changed and yes, everyone should have enough of a understanding of science that we can assess for ourselves if an issue is being presented to us honestly by the scientific community.

    Without this understanding, we are left to assess science largely by fashion. In the high-tech world, companies go from social darlings to scoundrels in the space of a few months. Lacking an understanding of how information technology works, people are little more than cattle at the edge of a stampede - once somebody starts running, everyone else follows.

    There is one more distressing transformation that makes democracies weakest link likely to remain so. There was a time when political action so involved a call to become more learned and aware. James Burke in his award winning 1978 TV series Connections ends with a plea for all citizens to try to connect with the world of science and technology that increasing was running our lives for us. Alas, 1978 is almost 30 years ago and we have lost the drive to understand.

    For many, science has become a kind of science fiction come true. We ask things of science and science delivers - what more could you want? Alas, there is no greater a sobering thought than the number times we have been promised that a cancer cure was just around the corner. The promises started around World War II and we are still waiting.

    Many of the fears that Burke expressed have come to pass. Increasingly, our lives are being effected by information collected by government and big-business. Instead of protecting our interests, the United States government has been spying behind our backs and insists it has our best interests at heart. How can misleading the citizens ever be in the best interests of a democracy? In the face of such intrusions, most prefer to look the other way. There are many fearful things in the world, and for many, government is the only thing out there to defend us.

    The old saying: People get the government they deserve is very much a double-edged sword. The founding fathers were spiritual men of the enlightenment and definitely didnt take happiness for granted. They expected the citizens of this new country to work as hard as they could - otherwise the grand experiment was invariably fail. Today we are spoiled by the technological and material comforts that nobody could even imagine in 1776. Yet, the complexity that technology has imposed on society has made being a citizen harder - not easier. Tolerance isnt about slapping a bumper sticker on your car and expecting the other guy to yield. Everybody has to be a team player and sometimes politeness needs to be grounded in something more intellectual than what your phone app can recommend.

    So once the band music has faded and the last firework has gone off, remember Abraham Lincolns deepest concerns at Gettysburg: whether or not this country can continue to endure. One thing is for sure, the United States will not be saved by the complacent.

    Edouard
     
  2. gsfred

    gsfred Founders Club Member

    Very well said.
     
  3. DeeVeeEight

    DeeVeeEight Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, being a radical will get you thrown in prison or cast as a social outcast nowadays. Freedom of speech is only a concept, not a reality. And a government misleads it's people all the time, IMO any government. It's easier and more profitable than being honest. We live in a do as I say, not as I do world as far as government is concerned. Get used to the idea, you are a government mule, you always will be. From the moment you were born and they gave you a social security number you were raised to pay taxes and follow the flag. God help you if you don't.
    Don't get me wrong, I love my country and feel that it is one of the most beautiful and safe ones in the world. However, I do not trust my government from the local PD and the mayor's office, right on up through the governor's office and beyond. Most of you go through your lives without falling afoul of the .gov. I have been harassed and investigated, threatened and penalized. I have had state revenue officers act like terrorists and threaten my home and security. Why? Because the state is out of money and they expect people like us to pay. At the same time I have seen the banks and auto makers get bailed out and found myself hard pressed to qualify for a mortgage. I could rant about the healthcare scam and how the pharmaceutical companies are in bed with the doctors and insurance companies too. There IS a cure for cancer - there is just no PROFIT in it. It is more profitable to treat the illness than it is to cure it.

    Conspiracy Theory? Oh Hell Yes.
     
  4. bhambulldog

    bhambulldog 1955 76-RoadmasterRiviera

    an oft forgotten clause of the Declaration of Independence
    I agree 100%

    And also with what Ronald Reagan said;
     
  5. bhambulldog

    bhambulldog 1955 76-RoadmasterRiviera

    Another from Ronald Reagan;
     
  6. bhambulldog

    bhambulldog 1955 76-RoadmasterRiviera

    I was looking for another quote from Reagan
    It goes roughly;
    "What is wrong with America is not too strong to be fixed by what is right ​with America"
     
  7. Smokey15

    Smokey15 So old that I use AARP bolts.

    Well said Edouard. We all need to pay attention to what is going on in government, at every level, get involved and let our voices be heard. And Edourd needs to get his posts, this on in particular, out to a larger audience than we can give him here.
     
  8. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    The United States was not meant to be a democracy. It was a republic.

    The rule of law... What a foreign concept that has become. Laws are now just ignored by the powerful.
     
  9. Bad Boattail

    Bad Boattail Guest

    From an old political thread:




    (Maybe reverse psychology will work :laugh:)
     
  10. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    Good words and apparently like minded folks in the vintage/classic/antique Buick world. This is my 2cents, worth what you pay for it and I speak for none but myself.

    We are now being ruled by elitists that think they know better than we do how our money should be spent. They continue to expend money on acts of benevolence to buy votes from blocks of people they have marginalized with our money!

    With another Bush and Clinton on the 2016 presidential tickets, we are nearing an oligarchy that makes Putin blush!

    The constitution guarantees the pursuit of happiness. You don't get it by sitting on your backside and walking to the mailbox for a check is not a career choice!

    As an example, I've tried to teach my public school educated daughter the value of money and the rewards of hard work. Some of it sunk in and some of it bounced. She had no desire to learn to drive manual transmissions and she is currently a liberal that thinks she deserved a space in MY garage that I worked for 20 years to be able to build and pay for. As an only child she is spoiled, like many in America today that think they are "owed" something for being alive. She's a good kid, smart, making a living 500 miles away but she's discovering what taxes are and how much is removed by force from her hard earned check. I'm hoping she'll become a little more conservative as she matures.

    America today, as I see it, is in a drunken spending spree that can't last. Our administration spouts off about conserving and lowering emissions all the while flying the largest, most luxurious and expensive jet all over the place to tell us how bad we are at conserving and cutting back.

    I (not an overly religious person) pray we get someone that actually cares about America. GW Bush wasn't the best president but it did seem he genuinely cared for America. Obama seems to have a distinct loathing of half of the country that disagrees with his plans of "fundamentally changing America" and not for the better.

    That's my rant on the state of America.
     
  11. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    I took the very unusual step of opening this back up, I think Ed's post is important for all of us to see.

    While I am sure this was closed to prevent an impending mud slinging fest, I don't see it quite yet, even the quotes from President Reagan are a bit general, I can't see where anyone would not agree with what was said there.

    So please, keep the tinfoil hats in the closet, and let's focus on a bigger idea. Freedom, how do we keep it?

    A reminder of what we have, and must fight to keep, is a good idea for everyone to see.


    I will throw out this Idea, that I have long held.

    Regardless of Party Affiliation or Ideology, the only way to fix what is wrong with our government, is to change it from within.

    How?

    Remove the money. Money corrupts, more than power, or any other factor. Look at Lee's post.. most of what he says has to do with money, and the governments desire for it, to perpetuate itself on every level. I have also dealt with this personally.

    I would love to see a constitutional amendment that would outlaw political contributions. Period.

    All elections, for every office from mayor of a hamlet in Idaho, to the presidential election, will be funded, equally, by the local state and Federal Government.

    I would take it a step further.. as an elected official, you can accept no form of compensation, other than your government salary.

    I cannot imagine that the founding fathers could even conceive of a bunch of billionaires funding one side of the isle, while a bunch of corporations fund the other side. With special interest groups all around, on both sides, pumping in nearly unlimited dollars on "issue ads".

    The Supreme Court ruled a few years ago that "money equals speech", and to me, that is the first step in the downfall of this republic.

    Yet, as Ed implied, our electorate is clueless, getting worst every election. Most have no idea what goes on in any level of government, and worst yet, don't care.

    So he who buys the most TV ads, and sounds the best during speeches, gets elected. Yes, we will always have the diehards on both sides, but the party base is not who elects candidates.. it's who funds them.

    And who the candidate is beholding to, when elected.

    Civil service needs to be just that.. service to the public, for a short time period, from folks who actually have jobs outside of the realm of government.. this is how you get the best ideas from the widest variety of people.

    And if money is not a factor, you will see principals and beliefs, on both sides, once again dominate the discussions and decisions.

    Right now, it's just about who is better funded.


    Anyway, those are my thoughts, please don't make me sorry I opened this up again..

    JW
     
  12. Smokey15

    Smokey15 So old that I use AARP bolts.

    Very well stated, Jim. And I totally agree. Our system of government could be near perfect if only those we elect to run it were as well.
     
  13. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Agreed Jim. There is an old quote about power corrupting. The same is true of money. Why would any group spend literally hundreds of millions of dollars to win a position that pays a few hundred thousand? Power. This was not what the founders of our republic had in mind. The idea was that successful, educated, businessmen would "pay back" and donate a few years of their lives to the betterment of the nation that had nurtured their success. That's not happening these days folks. and some of the recent legislation passed indicates the quality of the folks that are representing us.
     
  14. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Ed, Jim, very well said, both of you.

    As a student of history, I can see that essentially not much has changed down there; - the kinds of things you've both alluded to have been going on in one form or another since the day the ink dried on the Constitution. And before that, it has been going forever in most other societies. Some, like those currently in eastern Europe, are more open about the problem; - they accept it as "business as usual". Others, are showing us the way and what will happen to us all if cooking books and massive spending isn't curtailed or put under control; - Greece is first, then it'll be Portugal, Spain and Italy. Belgium won't survive without breaking up in the next few years, they don't even have an elected government, they can't get around the deadlock. France is a house of cards waiting to fall apart again. And then there are the Germans, who also have a thriving black-market labour industry along with an expensive social system, and they can't sustain a pan-European system that they first tried to build with force in the 40s and then tried to "buy" later on.

    The point is, no matter how much things appear to change, the more they stay the same. The biggest reformers the US had was Teddy Roosevelt and William Taft; they honestly tried to take on the endemic corruption that existed down there, and then it stopped...why?...but then again, we all get who we vote for, and then we get treated by these same people with the contempt we so richly deserve. It's all about money.

    On a bit of a side note, it's interesting to see just how much counterfeit money was generated in the US between 1820 and 1880. It was so bad that counterfeits circulated freely with genuine bills, in the smaller communities no one cared anymore. Even coins were counterfeited, they're estimating that well over half of all the varieties of 50 cent coins issued in the first 40 years are faked. It's all about money...

    And oh yeah; just in case anyone is getting the opinion that I think we're any better up here, think again, we've had some real winners up here that we'll never pay for. Right now the son of one of the most damaging Prime Ministers we've ever had thinks he's got what it takes to run a country, and that he wants to continue his father's legacy. The only problem is his father had brains, he doesn't.

    You guys need another Teddy Roosevelt; and there's none in the offing as far as I can see.
     
  15. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Classic Reflections

    V8 members,

    Back before there was a political forum and we were in the early post 9/11 years, I participated in quite a few discussions on here that involved politics. After Jim took the time to talk with me about it on the phone a decade or so ago, I've refrained from "jumping in" to political threads. Have I accidentally stumbled into a thread that was border line political or turned towards politics, yea, a couple of times, but all in all I've avoided them with a 10 foot cyber pole. I never once even looked at the political forum when it was here.

    My point being Jim's idea of this site basically void of these types of conversation is a good one. It personally has helped me because I've carried it into the work place where I've largely learned to not converse about things like this. It just leads to heartburn for everyone involved and thinking that you're going to fix anything (I know it is in our DNA) is not going to happen.

    There's a line in No Country For Old Men where Tommy Lee Jones, playing a Texas Sheriff, is told by his elder uncle, also a lawman, "You can't stop what's coming, it ain't all waitin' on you, that's vanity" with regard to where this country is heading.

    It is the last line of this YouTube clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1U3MyX0pmE
     
  16. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    One thing to point out..


    This thread is not about Politics... it's about government.

    A fine line for sure, but to me, politics is about donkeys and elephants arguing about whatever, blaming each side for whatever real or imagined ills afflict us..

    I don't care about that.. both parties are infested with the same problem.. money.

    What interests me is how do you fix that problem?

    JW
     
  17. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    Fixing the problem is going to be generational. The millennials have drank the Kool-aide and can't see the forest for the trees.

    It is going to take 3 things: 1) A president that honors his oath of office, 2) a Congress that honors its oath of office and 3) a Judicial system where a common criminal gets a lighter sentence than a Wall St crook that stole billions... oh, and they have to honor their oath of office too!
     
  18. Smokey15

    Smokey15 So old that I use AARP bolts.

    The comments on this thread bring this song to mind. Please indulge me for a moment.

    https://youtu.be/pYupSHWEJxA

    Throughout history, it seems to me that the honest men and women who actually try to make a difference and put an end to corruption and oppression, in any form, are persecuted or executed by the greedy zealots who slither among us.
     
  19. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Yup...'nuff said...
     
  20. Mister T

    Mister T Just truckin' around

    Edouard's post makes good sense as applied to most any democratically elected government in any so called free country.

    Today's government system is not to serve the electorate, but to serve themselves and their hired hands. As stated, they also serve those who provide the means for their status, be they campaign donors or those they best represent.

    The province of Alberta recently elected the New Democratic Party, aka NDP, for the first time ever. Most likely due to major discontent with the Conservative Party who ruled for 44 years. I have lived under a New Democratic government for the past 15 years, and over half my life in total.

    First and foremost, the NDP serve organized labor, who are their largest supporters.

    Next they serve government employees, typically by engorging the civil service ranks and creating various government departments within those ranks. It's a system that cannot support itself and is doomed to ultimately fail.

    Third, they "take care" of those who are not willing or able to provide for the greater societal good by working with heavy taxes on those who work hard, and giving to those who will not. This creates a natural voter support group for future elections.

    Fourth, and this is most insidious, in Manitoba, require ANY AND ALL people who work on any government infrastructure projects to PAY UNION DUES. It does not matter if those workers are non union, as most construction jobs up here are. If you want to work on such jobs, you pay the union to do so. This artificially inflates the costs, which of course are ultimately covered by the taxpayer. It also serves to prop up organized labors coffers, which in turn, allows them to spend even more money supporting the NDP. THAT is fundamentally what's wrong with the current government model.

    As previously stated, eliminate the money donations, and ensure the playing field is level for all candidates.

    I cannot imagine what the rest of this world thinks of another possible Bush vs Clinton Presidential race. :puzzled:
     

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