'66 GS Dealer Race car

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by wkillgs, Nov 12, 2006.

  1. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    I met the former mechanic and driver of this '66 GS dealer race car at the Vargo Dragway reunion last weekend. Vargo Dragway was in operation during the late 60's, it's located in Perkasie, Pa which is south of Quakertown and Allentown, Pa.
    Anyway, he had a few pics displayed of his former cars, one of which was this '66 GS. Here's the story:
    The convertible was chosen as it placed the car in a more desireable hp/weight class. It began as a run-of the-mill production car, but was upgraded with 4.30 gears, and the (original or replacement) engine received the 'race blueprint'.....bored out with 11:1 pistons. 'big' cam, Q-jet carb, etc. NHRA rated this engine at 332 hp, It ran low 13's with a trap speed of 100-105 mph.
    He did say this engine 'package' was not available to the general public, and it was only offered to certain dealers for race use. C&G received one, and also a dealer near Cecil County, Maryland. Could this be the 'MS' code 400/401 with 11:1cr listed in certain '66 literature?? He said this was NOT the production 340 hp Q-jet-optioned (L76)400/401 with 10.25:1 cr offered to the general public....(my Q-jet car has a 'MU' coded 400/401). Which brings up the question of why was the 'production' Q-jet 400/401 with 10.25:1 cr rated at 340hp, and the 'race' version with 11:1 cr rated at only 332hp??? ....maybe it was the difference between the Buick 'advertising team' ratings vs the NHRA ratings???
    Dennis Manner was qouted as saying the Q-jet optioned 401 was rated at 332 hp at in last years feature on Jim Shiels' 'pilot' L76 '66 GS....maybe he was referring to this 'race' combo? A '66 Hot Rod article, 'Blueprinting Buicks for Action' documents mods performed for a race setup, with similar et/mph results.
    At the end of the racing season, the car was returned to stock, repainted, and sold by the dealer. Wonder where it is now???? Anybody out there come across a white '66 GS 'vert????? ....It might have a VERY interesting history!
     

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  2. Guy Parquette

    Guy Parquette Platinum Level Contributor

    That's a neat picture and a cool story!

    You should post this in the Bench section under "Vintage Len Immke GS race car photos".
    Have anymore pic?
    Guy
     
  3. lapham3@aol.com

    lapham3@aol.com Well-Known Member

    Walt- I'm familiar with the 11:1 compression, but not the 332 hp part-very good/fun story-
     
  4. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Some background info:
    According to '66 Buick Service info, there were 3 engines available for the Skylark GS:

    MR code was the standard, 10.25 CR, with Carter AFB. Rated at 325hp.

    MU code was the optional 'L76'.... 10.25 CR, with Rochester Q-jet, dual-quad-spec distributor and cam. Rated at 340hp.
    This was option 'A9' on the order form, or 'L76' when referred to using the UPC code. Only 132 cars were built with this option.

    There was also a MS code 400/401 listed. 11.0 CR, with hp listed as 'unestablished'. I've uncovered very little info on this one!
    -The NHRA officially listed the hp for a 11:1 CR 400/401 at 332 hp....so this was probably the hp for the MS code combo.
    Anybody know how the NHRA determined hp???
    -Dennis Manner was also quoted as saying there was a 332 hp version available. Article appeared in Hemmings' 'Musclecar' about 2 years ago. It featured Jimmy's 'Pilot L-76' car.

    Somewhere out there is a survivor '66 GS ex-race car with 11:1 CR.
    Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to go FIND it!
     
  5. THEGSX

    THEGSX Professional 66 GS Nut !!

    ..

    Yeah Walt!!...I like that quote.... especially the last 3 words...GO FIND IT !!
     
  6. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Found another pic of the car in a 1966 edition of 'Automotive News'.
    Looks like this ole Buick was a potent combo!
    There appear to be 4 more 'larks in the showroom.....my L76 car came from this dealership.....I wonder if it was sitting in there? If only I had a time machine....
    BTW, this old dealership is still a Buick dealer. It's now Kelly Buick GMC.:TU:
     

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    angelorayhurst likes this.
  7. THEGSX

    THEGSX Professional 66 GS Nut !!

    Walt ..thats an awsome pic....can you make a copy for me?
     
  8. GSBeliever

    GSBeliever GSBeliever

    Walt,

    I acutally have a DVD of Drag Racing from Cecil County Drag-O-Way from 1966. There is a 1965 Buick GS that runs twice in the Video that I would love to find. I know it was run out of Whitham Buick in Baltimore, MD which is probably the other Dealer that you mention in your story. It actually looks like a twin of the 1965 Buick GS that Lenny 'Pop' Kennedy drove. Astro Blue/Painted White Roof. In the video it puts a Hemi on the Trailer headin home. I have tried to find out information about the car. I believe the Dealer is long gone !!

    Troy
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  9. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    The reason for the hp. difference and wierd rating is because Chevrolet was lying, lying,lying about how much thier engines were putting out so thier cars would always win at the strips. SOOOO Buick decided that they could do that too. That is why a super cat is rated at only 360 hp. And the "optional" engine [300 cu. in.] in 64 was rated at 250 horse.
    Buick was playing the game.
     
  10. pphil

    pphil Well-Known Member

    so how much hp does a superwildcat have???????????
    scott:Brow:
     
  11. bill lagna

    bill lagna Well-Known Member

    Troy,
    I remember that car running at Cecil, run very low 13's and had the Dual 4 carbs . I thought the car was out of the NE but not Balitmore, no Whitham Buick in Baltimore in the 60's. Would love to see that DVD!
     
  12. GSBeliever

    GSBeliever GSBeliever

    Bill,

    I could be wrong about Baltimore but I know for certain it was a Maryland Buick Dealer you can read it on the car. Also Jim Amos who narrates says it's out of Maryland. If you love seeing vintage footage of drag racing the way it use to be go to Bee OnLine Videos. It is owned by Jim Amos and he has some of the best Vintage Footage available on VHS & DVD. I believe the DVD I'm speaking of is called "Run what you brung" Cecil County. It has Bud Schellenberger and his altered wheelbase 65 Ranchero vs Malcolm Durham's Altered 65 Chevelle. It has all the old AFX Mopars and just a Ton of locals. Also Melrose Missile, Daddy Warbucks, Bruce Larson, "The Grump" etc..... You will not be dissapointed. All the footage has the real sound also, it came from Jack Werst "Mr 5/50". So check it out along with all the other DVD's that he has available it's worth it !!

    Troy
     
  13. GSBeliever

    GSBeliever GSBeliever

    Bill,

    I've tried tracking that car down but I just run into dead ends all the time. I'd give my left leg for that car.

    Troy
     
  14. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Well, Scot, the book says it puts out 360 hp. He,he. Lets see now, using ' grain of salt' figures, we can do it like this. A bone stock 401 puts out 325, right? Buick bumped it to 425 cu. in. and said that it put out 340hp. Then they added a 091 cam. Using gos figures we can say the super cat cam is worth 20 hp. over stock. [ actually I have seen figures that say 35 over stock] that alone gives us 360hp. now lets add another 4 bbl. again using gos figures, we can add at least 15 hp. [I have seen figures that say 20 to 25 more] that brings us up to 375 hp. Now with a good cam and another 4 bbl just how much would you say that a good low restriction exhaust system and a low restriction air cleaner add?? Again I would guess 10 gos hp. now we are up to 385.
    Lets remember that Buick designed and engineered these engines and so they also know how to make them go fast. And live.
    Now, that said it has been known for a long time that mods add up but they also multiply. Buick is the one who told me about the ''cold air pkg'' adding 8% of the gross hp. Ifffff, we add that to our hypothetical super cat engine we come up with 30.8 more, for a total of 415.8. This doesnt account for a recurved dist. or loose clearances or any thing else. no porting or eaven port matching for that matter.
    Now most of the competitions engines were around 425 to 427 cu. in. and rated at about 425 hp. all based on Nascar figures at the time. I would say that the super cat was compareable.
    back in the early seventies, I had a 64 lark with a 401 /supercat 091 cam/ holley 950 cfm 3bbl carb/ cold air pkg/ th400/4;11 posi gear that beat a lot of 440 dodges, 427 chebbies and 427-428 fords.
    In order to beat cars like that you have to have comparable hp. and then get it to the ground.
    I have not seen figures on what a super cat engine ''actually'' puts out but I have seen super cats beat other cars that were supposed to be faster than them.
     
  15. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    It's hard to see, but in the first pic, the '325 hp' is X'ed out! .....so at some point the NHRA must have refactored the hp for this car.....maybe that explains the 332hp figure on the NHRA site.


    Troy...pretty cool about the '65 on the DVD. I'll be keeping a look out for vintage pics of that car.
    I did look thru the dealer codes on this site:
    http://www.buickgsx.net/gsxhome.htm
    but didn't find a listing for Whitham, or anything similar in Md.
    Somewhere, somebody knows what happened to these 2 x-racers.

    Jim, the original pic was only 2"x3" but I sent you a larger pic, maybe it can be photoshop-enhanced.
     
  16. GSBeliever

    GSBeliever GSBeliever

    Walt,

    I must really be losing my mind. I'm telling you guys about the 65 GS in the video and all the whille thinking Maryland. Probably because that's where Cecil County is. I was totally wrong about the location of the Buick Dealership I guess at 40 I'm losing my mind !! It was bothering me so I put the DVD in. The car was from 'Witham Buick,Inc.' 2100 Penna Ave, Wilmington, DEL !! Now the dealership is long gone and I have not even been able to dig up any information on it. But like you said somebody knows where it is. Probably sitting in a garage somewhere waiting to be found. And that is my quest !! Sorry for the bum steer !!!

    Troy
     
  17. THEGSX

    THEGSX Professional 66 GS Nut !!

    All this talk about early 65 66 GS nailhead race stuff is making me want to develop a time machine...who wants to help me??:pray: :Comp: LOL
     
  18. GSBeliever

    GSBeliever GSBeliever

    Sorry can't do that !! But that's why I collect all the Vintage Drag Footage I can get my hands on. It let's me be 1960's all over again !!!!!!


    Troy
     
  19. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

  20. THEGSX

    THEGSX Professional 66 GS Nut !!

    Witham Buick was in Wilmington DE...the 65 GS was astro blue with a white top.... in 66 it was changed to Liberty Buick...1966 he ran a 66 GS astro blue with a white vinal top....325 hp car....Bob Musser Ran both cars in 1965 and 1966....they had a team of 6 guys tuning the car... FYI :)


     

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